Weekender XLBS: Miniatures IP Debate & Bolt Action Tanks Explored
June 12, 2016 by dignity
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Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
When I see the Mature Content warning on the link, my head immediately rewrites it to Immature Warning, which frankly could be applied to just about every XLBS episode.
And that is why I keep coming back every week, seeking likewise company,. Happy Sunday, indeed.
Happy Sunday!
\[T]/
Lol, what the hell has married life done to you @warzan – yesterday it was bony-parts and today it’s big ball. Do we need a little electric shock treatment
😉
What. The pupe rifle looks excellent but you mean to tell me that John didn’t want to do something like this for his first prop..?
https://youtu.be/vdgSBeRonbw
(Skip to 1.30 to avoid the cringworthy intro.)
Oh. Happy Sunday by the way. 🙂
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
John that prop looks great I have a friend that makes props for extra cash, him and his friend have a store and I would say that is pretty close to what they churn out, I mean they use fiberglass and ozzie madness to make top notch probs, but yours looks just as good as theirs, and they are paid money for theirs.
By the rock I take it you don’t mean the Isle of Wight?
@johnlyons Its even easier to tell the Italeri kits from warlord, the Italeri sprues are round, Warlord’s “in house” (produced by renedra iirc) kits have sloped bar sprues.
I think this environment, ‘the gaming hobby’ and all it’s associated elements, is slightly ‘unique’ in that, initially, it was begun by pure enthusiasts, as a ‘hobby’. The next stage was, perhaps one could make a living, out of this ‘hobby’. It then ‘morphs’ into a business. Eventually, it one has constructed all the elements effectively and appealingly to the prospective customers, success follows, followed by more growth, followed by more success, etc etc. Then, what becomes the ‘key’ driving force, the ‘interest’ or the acquisition of fiscal gain? The fine line is reached! The ‘unscrupulous’ elements within any industry, not just necessarily ‘ours’, then identify an opportunity to ‘get rich quick’, therefore, driven by fiscal greed, have no qualms about ‘ripping off’ others IP! Unfortunately, not everyone has or exercises integrity, morality or conscience, and this ‘element’ runs right through the different scales of society, from the bottom to the top! Sad, but true! I love my ‘hobby’, it has been instrumental on many occasions in my salvation and sanity, this is why I would never seek or wish to engage in it on a business level, ie, try to make a living out of it, for me, it would then cease to be my ‘hobby’!
Really interesting point @phalanx58 . My sense is that it remains the case that most people employed within the hobby are also hobbyists (i.e. it’s more than just a day job). I imagine very few choose to enter the hobby industry with the desire to make money without at least some level of interest in the hobby as a hobby. Which isn’t to say that some hobbyists don’t want to make as much money out of it, or as good a living out of it as they can. Just that this is still a business which has a certain culture to it.
I think probably the main exceptions would be GW and possibly a few other companies which have outside owners, be they shareholders or larger companies for which ‘the hobby’ is just one of the many things they do. It would be interesting to know what proportion of GW’s shareholders for example, have no interest in the hobby at all.
Happy Ball-day
The IP issue is one that seems to be rearing it’s head a lot at the moment. I read pages of comment on the recent Kickstarter MOBA style game LOAD.
I know that a lot of the ire at the Kickstarter was because it’s a Prodos game (albeit released under a new company they have created) but what I found more interesting was the appropriation of the entire Rum n Bones (part 1) rules that admittedly when it was discovered by the community the developers scrubbed them.
As well as the rules it has been claimed was the direct referencing / copying of characters and rules within the board game from video game characters most notable were ones from League of Legends.
So what happens next ok the rule set was pulled, but what about the characters. A Boardgames is a completely different animal to a video game, but as we have seen from Dark Souls the IP is totally transferrable into a different game style. How closely the characters are the same is I suppose what is up for debate, the sculptor can change the look of the mini to not resemble the video game character, but the character concept, and play style is something surely also owned by the original IP holder?
When it comes to the IP debate… you are looking at things from a rather limited background. When you state that “GW was the industry” it sounds as if GW invented wargaming… it didn’t. If anything fantasy and SF gaming were a small niche within the hobby before GW came up with its business model. And they were very good at that, so much so that it is now considered by a lot of people as being “the industry” and “the hobby”.
And when I hear that now there are finally companies publishing just the rules or bringing out just the miniatures… well, that is how it was done most of the time before GW anyway.
Minifigs never produced rulesets for their miniatures, Wargames Research Group never produced miniatures for their rule sets… And when Table Top Games made both rules, they would hope that you bought them together, but other than F&SF gaming they would rarely be marketed under the same name. Now that has changed where you have a Bolt Action of Flames of War range, while it is nothing more than 28 or 15 mm WWII, available everywhere else (and often cheaper)
And every time the “it is all just a cheap Warhammer knock off” comes around… I just roll my eyes and think WHFB is just another uninspired Tolkien clone (oh great, another fantasy version of Europe) and 40K is just a more fleshed out version of Laserburn (to be honest Bryan Ansell did work on both these games so that explains that I guess).
I’m off course showing my age here, having been to my first Salute back when it still was in Kensington Town Hall in 88 🙂
For all you young folk, pick up a copy of Henry Hyde’s “The Wargaming Compendium” and check out chapter two on the history of wargaming…
To be fair, being the industry (at that time) and inventing it are not the same thing 🙂
At the time im talking about they probably accounted for 80% of the industries revenue 🙂
Happy Sunday. Warren your Balls are in the post old boy…..
Lol i shall unleash them upon @dignity at every opportunity 😉
This is the thread on copyright discussion and how miniature design interacts with copyright law –
http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/painting/forum/topic/the-thin-white-line/
Here’s the theme music for Warren’s & Justin’s “Underground Mole Men”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F2ElD6__KU
Ohh i love this lol
Happy Sunday!!
I’d love it of Raging Heroes released a more ‘affordable’ basic unit set that would llow me to build a KoW Nightstalker army made up from a variety of their Void & Lust elves – they look spiky enough!
Some problems with your subway plan…
1) where are you getting your electricity?
2) how do you clear all the other trains off the line?
3) Will you have enough coins for the food vending machines?
4) Ummm… how will you breed to continue the human race?
I think you’re giving GW a bit too much credit for creating an industry; some of us began our hobby long before GW emerged with a broad choice of historicals and even fantasy ranges on hand – Airfix being one of the bigger name – with a vast choice of rulesets. A broad choice evident at places like Salute was there before GW and will survive long after.
What GW did was create an interesting value proposition for hobbyists – a one-stop shop for all your needs including the literal shop!
Sitting at the heart of this was developing their own IP – which is the main reason why the LOTR move was seen as controversial within GW and has continued to do so. LEGO has struggled with similat issues of trying to develop their own IP ranges balanced against the easier sell of an IP based range but with the additional costs and hassles.
Theft is theft and ‘passing off’ like re-casting clearly falls into that category. However while certain things can be protected – genres can’t.
At the other end of the scale we have over protection, particularly retrospective bully-tactic IP grabs by corporate entitiesl for example “You can’t call your pub the Hobbit any more” and the term “Space Marine” being out there before GW called a range of models that. If anyone needs protection it’s the small start-up but the size of your wallet and hence your legal resources tends to rule.
Again just because GW have tied up the Space-dollies and Tolkein origined market for the last couple of decades, don’t think the ‘industry’ started there. As for this notion of separate rulesets/mini ranges – that’s a lot more mature an industry. Take Frostgrave:
Frostgrave >> Osprey >> Founded 1969 and has been releasing rulesets without mini ranges for decades.
I actually wasnt giving credit, just stating how things were. GW didnt create the industry if course, they did however create an industry that was so dominent as to make its imagery and ideas account for the vast majority of sales (which is the fojndation of my point that it perhaps lead to the initial slowness in development of fundamendatly different sucessful franchises, of wich we now have many)
One of Musk’s theories on AI is that something as simple as E-Mail could be the trigger for an AI. His theory is that an AI focusing on spam filtering would determine humans are the main cause of spam and determin humans need to be destroyed to get rid of spam.
Cyber enhancment is also dangerous since electrical signals can be sent fast than brain sygnals so by the time you’ve thought of doing something the AI has stopped you from doing it
Terrifying!
Talking about piberifles I recall seeing one from WW2 that was used by the resistance in Denmark based on a bike cycle pump – think it was more or less one use only.
Here’s some guns made from gas pipes and plumbing stuff in the 90’s used during the Bosnian war in Sarajevo
Happy Sunday, I couldn’t help but the notice that John today on a tank episode of all things was not wearing one of usual WW2 t-shirts but a lovely winged unicorn number. This should definitely qualify him to be the playtester from the BoW team for the My Little Pony RPG game that’s coming out. As we already know he really likes them from previous shows and has the wardrobe for it.
Happy sunday with an intro like that this has to be posted
https://youtu.be/_W-fIn2QZgg
The question on recasting tanks has got me intrigued. If the tank is under copyright, and the company who makes the miniature hasn’t licensed the right to make it from the copyright holder, then they are making a derivative work which infringes on the copyright holder’s rights. If I sculpt and sell Batman minis without getting Time Warner’s permission, and you recast and sell them, I’m not sure I could stop you on the basis you are recasting my sculpt. I am myself recasting a copyrightable image that I don’t own when I make minis of my sculpt, so I’m not doing anything different to you when it comes to infringing on Time Warner’s rights. That would lead me to conclude that if a tank is under copyright, and a wargames company makes and sells miniatures of that tank without a licensing agreement, then the same would apply. If someone with a better understanding of IP law than me knows better then please enlighten me 🙂
Where that leaves historical images in the public domain I’m equally unsure of. No-one owns the copyright on an ACW soldier, so any minis company can make and sell ACW miniatures. If those minis are accurate depictions thwn by definition they can’t contain anything copyrightable, so does the fact that someone has sculpted one give them exclusive rights to copy that mini? Again, if someone who knows the law better than I can explain then please do :).
Happy Sunday!
The talk about Churchills and no mention of the North Irish Horse?
They used Churchills in Italy and named their tanks after towns in Northern Ireland including Coleraine.
interesting article about copyright, what are your thoughts on using 15mm scale minis from Peter Pig as an example in Bolt Action
@rickoshea are you worried about copyright in that case? or something else?
In the end, BA is just a set of rules and you can decide what range or scale of figures to use with those rules. I have FoW, Peter Pig, Quick Reaction Force, Plastic Soldier Company in 15mm and I will use those for any ruleset…
that simulation theory and mathematical certainty is all based on the idea that reality is finite, which It obviously isn’t . all ideas like this happen when the thinker has a narrowed in view point based on their viewing reality from a set fixed point from which all other things become relative.
subject object perspective warping and clouding the way they view things.
the idea infinity from a finite perspective will always create a contradiction .
so john let me get this right, a northern Irishman in paramilitary uniform with a home made pipe gun. have you thought this through )
Would love to see the Warlord E8 next to the Blitzkrieg one. I bet they’re slightly different scales and look weird next to each other.
they are a little different. Warlords is better on the detail and proportions however
At time 59ish Warren apologized for deviating from the running order. I could care less for the news stories (most of them, the ones that are reviewed from the site) or Kickstarter segments. BUT, I seriously enjoy the hobby time, the round table discussions and when the boys get to just having a good ‘ole chin-wag. I appreciate the effort of putting together the content of the show, but I watch the XLBS for the relaxed easy going nature of the discussions and varied more ‘personal’ topics. I miss the ‘Hobby Dad’ segment for instance.
So Warren, good on ya for talking about whatever de-railed train of thought that pops into your head, keep it up! The free form flow of discussion is a huge draw to the XLBS.
Interesting discussion on IP and copyright issues. I feel there are a lot of grey areas in this matter where you can argument in favor of each party, when you’re talking about a perceived copied IP/product.
I do agree recasts are essentially bad, but I have considered buying some for use in conversions and kitbashing work. When you’d like to turn a magnificent battle engine into a piece of burntout terrain it’s tempting to go for the cheaper model.
A couple of clarifications on the Sherman . The WSS track , like on the M4 was 16 1/2 inches wide , the HVSS rubber track on the M4A3E8 was 23 inches , with the all metal track pads being 24 inches . The E8 stood for the suspension. The E stood for Experimental in US Army vernacular , and the 8 stood for 8th type of suspension tested . There was also a E9 type which involved widening the WSS wheel sets with spacers on the body so the duck bill track extensions could be used on both sides of the track shoe to spread weight . The Petard Mortar on the Churchill loaded from the rear , the mortar breaking vertically like a shot gun . The co drivers hatch was redesigned to slide back , allowing him to push the 40 pound projectile up into the mortar , only exposing his hands and arms to incoming fire ! All info gleaned from the Haynes Sherman and Churchill books
Recasting is in interesting quandary so far as I’m concerned… Forgeworld, other resin manufacturers make some incredible stuff, the time and effort that goes into designing these things is huge, but when you look at the medium itself even the biggest kits won’t use more than a couple of quids worth of resin. You’re paying for the time, the effort, the craft that’s gone into the design, yes, you’ve got production overheads but then you’re also faced with the exorbitant mark up which creates the environment where gamers start looking around. I’m not condoning re-casters, but when you think they have their own enormous overheads, they have the exceedingly high demands of the consumer base and they have the enormous rift in availability and experience with the machinery required to then go on to produce something that people may not even notice to be a knock-off it’s an incredible thing they’re able to do – particularly when it’s rarely just a couple of quid being knocked off but a third or even a half of the price you can see why people would use them. The technological expertise is growing year upon year, and it’s fuelled by our demand as a community – more and more firms are now dependent on manufacture in the far east in order to maintain a liable business model. What we’re seeing is that members of staff, talented in their own right utilising the skills and experience they’ve developed in ‘legitimate’ manufacture to steal, to usurp other people’s IP to create products that people will otherwise buy in their own time. You think the re-casters would be doing it if they were being paid a decent wage in their legitimate employment? Only options you face is to either keep manufacturing in the UK or the EU or the US or wherever and have higher overheads, narrower profit margins, heck, you may not be able to afford to do it here, OR, go to the developing world where you have lower overheads (lower wages, greater worker exploitation) but run the risk of IP theft. Some firms simply don’t have a choice if they want to survive but others, like Workshop, who have that dominance, that history, that pedigree it’s surely less about the stresses of production and more the maximisation of profit margins on what is still some of the highest quality stuff you can buy. Perhaps all we need is a little less greed all round, pay a premium for a premium product but likewise, the consumer shouldn’t be made a fool of as the alternatives are out there, what it needs is mutual respect.
Anyone else having trouble seeing this xlbs
Try a different web browser @chrisg see if that helps
Churchill guns on sprue – Petard Mortar , US 75mm with co ax Browning 30 cal , 6 pounder , Brit 75mm , and 95mm Howitzer . The welded turret was the Mk III , the cast turret was the Mk IV . You can’t make a Mk VII from this kit as the hull side doors changed from square to round in the VII .
I once fired a wadcutter round through a Pattern 1853 Enfield replica, made a loud howling/whistling noise up the range and went through target sideways. So as long as the barrel is properly heat treated and the round is not to big you can rattle anything through a smooth bore.
It’s not to be recommended but if your living in a dystopian world and need to defend yourself I guess you’ll use anything, a bit like prisoners as per the examples in this link.
http://www.correctionsone.com/contraband/articles/1961780-15-deadly-improvised-prison-weapons-and-tools/
I can get some audio but no pictures, made sure everything else is up to date can play Saturdays but not todays. A little miffed anyone help/
Really don’t know Chris, it works fine on my computer – and I’ve not the fastest connection whatsoever.
Easy 8 Sherman Tank For Bolt Action: and the three things…. the four things you can excel at.
Cardinal Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise!… Surprise and fear… fear and surprise… Our two weapons are fear and surprise… and ruthless efficiency! Our three weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency… and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope… Our four… no… Amongst our weapons… Hmf… Amongst our weaponry… are such elements as fear, surpr… I’ll come in again.
I met Chris at UKGE and had a very interesting chat with him. I did have to tell him that I wasn’t particularly interested in his balls, although I was pleased that others were.
More interesting was the range of Rogue-Trader style SF miniatures he’s produced, of which there is now quite a variety, from the awesomely characterful ‘not Genestealer’ cultists to the really, really cool space dwarfs. His new range of evil fantasy dwarfs are really good too. I bought some even though I’m not a dwarf or a fantasy player!
That’s Chris at Macrocosm Miniatures, featured in the clip from the wargames mini film.
Check out the rest of the miniatures (including the balls) here: http://www.macrocosm.co.uk/
I met Chris at Sheffield Triples and he didn’t have ball then? 😉
I however would love to see Chris’s balls but cannot get to see the XLBS I have sound but no pictures, everything here on the headings plays so I am at a loss.
Happy Sunday!
Great conversation guys.
@johnlyons : great looking pipe gun so far!
Happy Sunday!!!!
@warzan @dignity you didn’t get round to talking much about alternative 3rd party components, like anvil industries weapons etc.
What are your thoughts? Do you have any issue with people making heavy machine guns, assault rifles, flame weapons, plasma guns etc that are clearly designed to fit with GW Space Marines, but look fundamentally different to the current offering from GW.
I got into a discussion with someone on the crusade and heresy facebook group that wouldn’t accept that they are completely different to what is available from GW and it comes down to a personal preference of weather you like product A or Product B. It got a bit heated in the end and the discussion was deleted by the admins, but I still stand by the idea that I have a choice of which I buy – there isn’t much of a cost difference either, in fact to use them on 30k/40k space marines, I would effectively be buying weapons twice anyway.
As it happens I haven’t bought any anvil industries stuff as I haven’t had an army to build that would use it – the offering doesn’t really fit with 30k. Nice stuff though and if I was doing a 40k SM army I would definitely consider them
🙂
Happy Sunday!
Not so easy to join in this discussion. Those Raging Heroes minis are kind of meant to be used in Warhammer or 40k settings, even if those tough girls are in a slightly different scale. But they are so unique, I won’t call them copies. Would it be any different, if they bring out their own game? What’s with those awesome Orks from Puppet Wars, with the dwarfes from Scibor and so on, there are so many miniatures.
I even used some Void minis as civillians in my Imperial Guard Army, to build my own interpretation of a conscript troop.
I think raging heroes are more aiming at doing the settings you are talking about but I think there doing them as they feel they should be done. in their kickstarter they have said they have been working on the rules for some time, they also have some fluff on there for the armies and it is different . the armies have a few units that aren’t in the other setting but I think they are aware that they are hedging their bets. so its still open for debate
An interesting show @warzan the thing about IP is lawyers make a living proving similarities between things to the nth degree look at the thing in the news with a song that may be similar to the other.
Its always good to have a rant now and again.
An interesting topic, although I felt it meandered a little/lot.
My local model shop is thinking of starting to stock the 1/100 Zvezda WW II tanks. Now, that’s not really a scale people usually model at, and the reason they’re modelling at that scale is to produce models which can be used in FoW.
Most modelling scales are 1/32, 1/48, 1/76. If you’re modelling at 1/56 or 1/100, those are wargaming scales, so is it fair to say you’re freeloading on a games system when you see such products?
Okay, a full day today, both historical and sci-fi gaming … so I’m just getting to watch this show and offer detailed comments now …
First up, @johnlyons – great prop weapon, it really looks like a post-apocalyptic piece of improvised (yet complete functional) gear.
Great info on the actual meaning of the “M4A3E8” – I always knew what an “E8” stood for, but I didn’t know about the engine, suspension, and gun specifications.
Justin, the American “military call sign alphabet” has changed over the years. During WW2 it was Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Fox, George, How, Ida, Jig, King, Love, etc . . . In modern times it’s been updated and standardized to the present model: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima, etc . . .
You’re right, E used to = “Easy,” not sure if that’s why they started calling it the “Easy Eight.”
THE (FIVE?) ELEMENTS OF TANK DESIGN:
The classic three elements are: firepower, survivability, mobility. But this has always been an over-simplification. This model only works if tanks are meeting in imaginary, one-on-one “jousting combat.” If course real warfare doesn’t work that way.
As John correctly points out, ease of manufacture can be a “fourth” element, because this is what’s going to determine how MANY of tanks you’re going to have. NUMBERS matter, and this explains the primary merit of models like the Sherman and the T-34. This also explains why “humbler” German designs like the PzKpfw IV and the StuG-III were far more important to the German war effort than the “big cat” Panthers and Tigers.
This can be further expanded into ease of operation / maintenance in the field. Tanks like the Panther and Tiger were 45- and 60-ton Swiss watches, they were prone to breakdown and once they did, required a mountain of work to repair because of terrible maintenance design and complex component systems. Infamously, many parts on the Panther engine had to be worked on upside down and blind, and don’t you dare drop your tools. Conversely, tanks like the T-34 and Sherman were easy to work on, with plenty of room to switch out components, and even if knocked out in combat, could usually be brought back into service with fairly straightforward first- or second-echelon repair work.
There’s actually a fifth aspect of tank effectiveness – kind of hard to define with a single phrase, maybe we can call it “crew ergonomics?” How many crewmen are there, how are they laid out, how are their responsibilities and “combat loads” balanced, and how well can they communicate?
This was the crucial edge that the German tanks had over British and French designs early in the war that were far superior to German machines if one only considers the “firepower / mobility / protection triangle.” German tanks all had radios. The crews all had throat mikes so they could communicate over the deafening noise inside the tank. Most German turrets had three men in them, a commander, loader, and gunner. Sounds basic now, but back then this was a novelty. The French Char-B and excellent S-35 tanks, for example, had only one man in the turret, the commander . . . who ALSO had to load the gun AND fire the gun. This meant no tactical flexibility, and a 1/3 rate of fire compared to a German tank. The Char B had its main gun in the hull, which meant reduced visibility and field of fire. The driver also had to “aim” the tank by pivoting the whole 60-ton vehicle. And fire the gun. Wait, wasn’t he the driver? And let’s not even get into how ammunition is laid out of stowed.
Even today this “crew ergonomics” debate rages. Note the modern Soviet / Russian line of tanks since the T-64, that choose an automatic loader rather than a human loader. Saves space and operating expense, sure . . . but it’s never as efficient or as fast. If you don’t think that has an impact on the tank’s ability, play T-72s in Team Yankee that get to fire once every turn . . . while the M1 gets to fire twice every turn. All this is down to this nebulous “Fifth Element” of tank effectiveness: Crew Ergonomics.
There may even be a sixth and seventh elements, being crew training (crews are always the most important element of any tank system) and combined arms / logistical support. In other words, how well does the tank, and all its merits and flows, fit into the larger operational doctrine and methodology of the army overall? But, admittedly, these aren’t really design features of the tank itself and so are probably out of scope of a conversation on the five elements of tank design. 😀
Two points:
1. I have no problems with add-ons that require me to buy the original miniature to use. While theoretically it is still competing with a future product from the original company, in many war games you start to get a set of miniatures that all look the same. In this there are two levels of questionability:
a: Making a part that directly attaches to an existing model solely for that model with no other use. This one is more questionable as that is working directly on the IP and could take away sales from the owner. I don’t have a real problem with it, depending on what you are trying to do. Give me a choice of 500 heads for my Space Marines, no real problem in my book as I still had to buy the Space Marines from GW to use them. Make similar weapons to existing ones, for example the Imperial Guard heavy weapons. I have a little more of a problem with, because that does reduce the sales to GW as I can get the regular troopers for cheaper.
b. Making products that are useable but not specifically designed for a particular range. I have zero problem with this. For example there are bunch of base suppliers out there. GW just released their base line for 40K, but someone else making a competing line is fine with me. I will continue to use the Basius line for my bases. Here they are providing a generic sculpt that is usable for other peoples work, but is not specifically for the other work. In general the thing is intent here. So I guess you are creating a bit of a sticky wicket here. The Basius line is taking away from GWs sales, OTO it is doing it by offering a competing product.
2. You were talking about rules mechanics and according to US copyright laws (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf):
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
Therefore, I can derive my mechanics for my game from the mechanics for your game and have no problem legally (at least in the US). I cannot take your story or art, but if I want to use a d6 based war game based on attacks and saves I can. Pull bag initiative, no problem. Now if I try to pass my system as your system I can run into trademark problems, and would have to license it. IE Wizkids licensed the X-Wing system from FFG for Star Trek Attack Wing, to say it was the same system, not because they could not come up with something similar and be within their rights to do so.
–Chris
Don’t worry about it @warzan – the whole “calibers” thing can get a little confusing.
Basically, there are two definitions of the word. In small arms, “calibre” can be the hundredths of an inch the bullet is WIDE. Not the casing, not the shell, just the actual projectile. So a .30 caliber rifle bullet is .30 of an inch wide (7.62mm). This is the calibre of the bullet. A .22 pistol round is .22 inches wide, and a big round like the .50 cal is, well, half an inch across (12.7mm). 🙂
In bigger guns like cannons, “calibers” is usually an expression of the length of the barrel in relation to its bore. So a short, stubby howitzer-type shell like the early StuGs is usually listed as “7.5cm L/24.” The 7.5 cms is the width of the projectile. If you walk up to a StuG and stick your hand into the front of the gun, that hole is 7.5 cms (just short of 3 inches) wide. The “L/24” is the calibre. It basically says that the barrel is 24 times longer than it is wide. So the early-model StuG gun barrel was only about 71 inches long, or not quite six feet. A VERY short gun, meant for lobbing low-velocity HE shells at targets.
Later, the StuG would be upgraded to an L/48 gun for high-velocity work. Same size projectile (7.5cm), but the round leaves the muzzle much faster for increased range, accuracy, and kinetic hitting power.
A longer barrel (higher “L” calibre number) means more velocity. The bullet flies right at the target in a flat trajectory and blasts into the target with no explosive, just punching through the armor with sheer kinetic impact. Basically, Ek = 1/2 mass * velocity (squared). What matters is how fast the shell is travelling, so a high-velocity shell like a 17-pounder (77mm) hits armor harder than a low-velocity 105mm howitzer round
A shorter barrel (lower “L” calibre number) means lower velocity. Like a mortar or a howitzer, the gun “lobs” a big bomb at the enemy that contains explosive that detonates on impact. Usually better suited for soft targets, infantry, buildings, bunkers, etc.
Making a gun’s barrel longer is a little more complicated than simply “making the pipe longer on the end of the gun.” The reason longer barrels yield higher muzzle velocity is because the round is in the barrel longer, and the expansive gasses of the propellant charge are accelerating the round for a longer period of time (granted, this is probably two milliseconds rather than one millisecond, but it’s enough to make a huge difference on the speed of the round and it exits the muzzle).
The problem in Newton’s Third Law . . . every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Higher muzzle velocity means exponentially more chamber pressure, recoil, and a whole stack of other design features that basically means the back end of the gun has to be much bigger (chamber, breech block, recoil braces, gun mantlet, etc.). To the point where the 17-pounder is so big and bulky that it has to be installed in the Sherman turret sideways (as @johnlyons has often said) just to get it to fit.
This is the reason why many guns that DON’T need super-high velocities (i.e., not antitank guns) don’t often have long barrels or high “L” calibre numbers.
34:45 – Hold on, Cuba has been under siege by the United States? 🙂
Scary! I’ve been living 150 miles from a warzone and never knew it. 😀
In all honesty, our trade embargo (admittedly an arcane and completely ineffectual policy) only restricts (note: restricts, as in not even 100% prevent) trade and travel between America and Cuba. That’s left Cuba 150+ other countries with which it could always trade freely. Cuba’s economy and society is in the state it’s in because it’s been ruled by an unapologetic and regressive dictatorship for 60 years . . .
. . . not because of the least effective “siege” in history. 😀 😀
^^ note many smiley faces, certainly not trying to “win the internet” here. 😀 America’s pulled a lot of stunts in recent decades, I just don’t think this is one of them.
No worries @oriskany one of the dangers of trying to repeat somthing (ive either read or off tv) and not having the appropriate words to do it. 🙂
To add to the Churchill discussion:
Got these photos of a Churchill AVRE “dustbin” tank (combat engineer vehicle) during a trip to Normandy. Also the “Crocodile” flamethrower variant.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/historical-games/forum/topic/churchill-avre-and-crocodile-photos
On the IP subject.
I think it was something that untimely needed to happen. I was working for the company at the time, and well somethings were not so good, so I was trying to make Tyranid Creatures and it seemed if I was making something, unless it 100% it wasn’t good enough. Mystic spores weren’t alright because they blocked line of sight and contained to many non GW parts even if they were just craft supplies.
I think the problem came when they stopped making stuff and said we will make it later. I think it was fine when it was various company should pads and so on. Small things which people would swap out and they would go ehhh okay.
I think that GW should return to the whole 90 percent rule. Which was so long as 90 percent of the model was GW it was alright to play it. I would make it something like 80 or something maybe as slow as 75. But see this would allow for the use of other peoples heads and so on, but not for whole other models. Allowing people to fill the gaps the GW leaves behind. I mean we all know that people want more of whatever the latest thing is like grav guns or whatever the new grav gun maybe but GW could fill that need if they really wanted to.
Those are my thoughts anyway.
I must say I agree with you @caladors I think that a decent amount of people don’t want to have a clone army of Space Marines for example. So, you have some companies that produce bits and stuff and people should be allowed to use them if they want. In a reasonable manner that is. Swap the head, the arm or the gun just to make the models look more diverse.
But can John tell the difference between a Grizzly Cruiser Tank and an Sherman
Too much faith in Musk, imo. 😀
His idea to colonize Mars is a testament that being brilliant at one thing does not make one brilliant at all things. That only works on TV. 😀
Well Warren you are welcome, that topic was from the first The Thin White Line, Sunday show, what we have said rather than continuing the subject after the time limit that someone can run with the topic continuing the conversation but under a different title so as not confuse the two. This weeks Thin White line is still live and looking at wargaming shows and will finish tonight, that is Monday the 13th at 22:00 hrs. As again the same applies no one is saying don’t continue with the conversation and I know it is boring but under another title.
We are also searching for people to volunteer their time to place a topic, the next available slot is in two weeks time Sunday the 26th 10:00 hrs finishing Monday the 27th of june 22:00hrs. Next week Redben will be posting The Thin White Line, or the Sunday politics as Warren calls it.
Thanks all
Chris G
Happy Sunday!
Hi, just to add to the copy rights on WWII equipment, I build a lot of scale model aircraft and a few years ago I started seeing license issued on a lot of modern jets but this soon followed on some WWII aircraft and this is obviously aircraft produced by American companies. Now it seems that a lot of these licenses were bought up by Boeing so there are a lot of WWII aircraft that are now produced in model format under license by Boeing.
Dear Side Tracked Warren,
Thank you for your preemptive apology over the excessively long off topic tangents that you inflict upon the show and its planned running order. It warms my cynical heart that you appear to have noted my previous complaint and recognised your tangent.
I am however pleased to tell you that, compared to your previous incident, I consider this an improved tangent as it was in fact related to the topic at hand. You began with the topic of a game which is themed around AI uprisings and proceeded to wax lyrical about the possibility of robot uprisings. I must also salute the video editing that incuded the Space X footage you referenced in the course of your wandering narrative.
However, I feel this post would be incomplete if I were not to mention that you never did really talk about the game that prompted this spontaneous praising of The Great Elon Musk. But hey, I had forgotten about his role in creating PayPal so there is that.
Good discussion on IP, I think John was on the money with Arms Manufacturers retaining rights given that BAE keep flogging military helicopters to the Middle East.
Week late but playing catch up after being away
For me, recasters should be burned at the stake! Facebook groups seem to be filled with people happy to buy FW knock-offs if it saves them a few quid, or equally go out and find a PDF of the Heresy books as “FW ones are too expensive”
It’s simple, you want something, pay the people who created it the money they deserve for their time and efforts.
The irony of the last “discussion” I was involved in on a FB group was a guy asking for a PDF of the HH books, when pointed out they weren’t available as PDFs (at that time) he said “I don’t care I’m not paying for it”, when you checked his FB profile he worked for Xerox….