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Weekender XLBS: Why Modern Warfare Kicks Ass & Have We Reached Peak Tabletop?
February 24, 2019 by brennon
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Happy Sunday!
Whoo Who! Modern Warfare’ gets some love’en!
Modern warfare is great at all scales. Spectre Ops is a particularly good ruleset too. The only thing I’ll say that is that there are best modern warfare jumps from squad based to armoured company+ level instantly, and in open combat (as opposed to enclosed urban warfare, or at least heavy, difficult terrain) once you have tanks, attack helicopters and artillery in a battle, infantry are almost pointless. It’s almost too easy for hardware to kill large concentrations of infantry.
Interesting point and sort of explains why my take on moderns is quite different from how I see other wargames.
For me (and it’s only my opinion and some personal thoughts) I see MY fun in moderns at the very tightest scale (squad) and I see it as more of a puzzle game than a shooty ping ping game.
The possibilities for watching your strategic decisions play out along side your chosen choreography of the assault and then having to deal with where things go wrong is just mouth watering to me lol
Squad level is definitely the tightest scale as you say. One mistake costs disproportionately more and a single disabled opponent can swing an entire fight.
The problem with modern warfare in larger battles is that in real engagements “off board” solutions would be introduced if the battle went badly enough. The sheer killing power of vehicles like attack helicopters, Warthogs or ordinance means that there is no certainty in tactics as they can destroy swaths of enemy troops and vehicles. It was always that situation in Team Yankee that was feared that the Cold War would suddenly go nuclear.
No amount of off board support can undo the damage that bad press does though…
Or an opponent who doesn’t play by the rules of war
The other thing is smoke is your friend, especially in Spectre Operations. Spectre posted this up as a preview of the new rules.
Spectre FB Page
In the lead up to the release of Spectre: Operations – 2nd Edition, we are going to be talking about some of the changes and updates from the 1st Edition.
One of the biggest areas we have updated is suppression, so is a good place to start!
With the first edition, we concentrated on using the Suppression mechanic to simulate heavy fire effect on a force, which it did pretty well – but it wasn’t perfect. During the life of the first edition, we had feedback about the difficulty of book Suppression keeping in very kinetic or larger games, and requests for a morale mechanic – which we thought was a great idea, and thought the two could be linked. We set about devising a suppression mechanic that remained realisitc for each different tier of forces, but easier to manage and had a morale component.
So after a lot of play testing… rewriting and more play testing, we have a really innovative and realistic Suppression mechanic that does not slow the game down – and greatly enhances tactical game play…. In doing so, it led to the creation of an equally innovative squad mechanic… More on this later.
So – the Suppression mechanic – at it’s core, suppressive fire over a certain level triggers a command test… Failing the test creates suppression effects over several escalating levels; Suppressed, Pinned, and you asked for it.. Routed! To manage the differences in the abilities of troops, the effects are different – it is very hard to pin down and rout some of the better trained troops.
This new Suppression mechanic now makes squads and squad leaders much more valuable, especially for large Militia squads that gain bonuses in numbers, and for Professional or Elite troops mentoring lower tier squads…
But more on that soon along with much, much more, including gameplay videos, so you’ll soon be able to see how these new rules work in detail!
For now, here’s some photos of good models for pumping out large amounts of suppression!
cool … I like the idea of a mechanic that is simple to use while still simulating the desired result.
Ohh yeah HAPPY SUNDAY folks 😉
Why are you up so early, Men of Coleraine, stop your dreaming.
Can’t you see their spear points gleaming…..
If you looking at near future and the idea of PMC and you’re looking at a sci-fi (not realistic setting) then think MSG (metal gear solid) 4 here is a list of them.
https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Private_military_company
Remember in that setting the PMCs are like their own countries, you could move into future if you look at such PC games are COD: Infinite Warfare and COD: Advanced Warfare, infinite warfare goes to space but COD: AW takes that PMC and runs with it.
Lots of opportunities for narrative play and ideas. The start of AW has the player with the US military drop podding into South Korea.
opening mission
https://youtu.be/0yHLq-SSccI
Metal Gear Solid is a perfect example. That would look extremely cool on the tabletop.
Happy Sunday!!
Good morning, everyone, and Happy Sunday!
A seriously great show! 😀 😀 😀
On the topic “characteristics” of Modern Warfare (and subsequently Modern Wargaming)
1) Asymmetrical forces. “Armies” almost never fight, it’s almost always regular forces vs. irregular forces.
Force-on-Force is a great one for this. The front of the book is how regular forces work, the back of the book goes into irregular forces, and it’s almost a completely different rule set. It’s almost about which player gets the other player to play “his” game.
2) Broadly speaking, regular forces ALWAYS win in firepower, training, armor, support assets, etc. But the irregular force usually has more numbers, is usually on the defense (with all the advantages that come with that), and MUCH EASIER victory conditions (e.g., the five SAS commandos have to retake the building against 20 terrorists, and all the terrorists could die, but if even one hostage is killed, the SAS player loses the game).
3) Casualty evacuation, which @stvitusdancern goes into.
Card mechanics and “random events” with an AI-controlled enemy was actually done very well with Warfighter:
I have this game and played it a few times. Not a miniature game. But this could easily be ported over.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/149951/warfighter-tactical-special-forces-card-game
Great point on the rise of PMCs, @warzan 😀 “Blackwater” was the company, one of many.
I think the real danger with these PMC companies is the “brain drain” they’re pulling out of the US and other Western militaries. It’s tough to do that job for what the military pays, putting up with the risk to life and limb and the usual hardship, then when your re-enlistment comes up, you realize you could do the same job for … seriously … 5-10 times the money, often with better support … So they understandably DON’T re-enlist, and instead join a PMC firm. It seems some areas of the formal military are actually having a hard time keeping force levels up to prescribed levels, there’s a real retention problem with the top-level guys in these fields.
And PMC’s are rarely hampered by the same rules of engagement, media scrutiny, government oversight etc.
Blackwater (now Academia) case in point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi
Yeah like when PMC’s killed 100,000+ thousand people most of them civilians with Nukes in Japan. Wait oops I meant like the time PMC’s invaded a foreign nation based on them having WMD’s then didn’t find any. Woops sorry I meant like that time PMC’s financed “Freedom Fighters” in Afghanistan against their enemies and they turned into the worlds largest terrorist organisation. Woops again. Governments have done insanely worse things than PMC’s and not had anyone punished for it.
PMC’s get judged FAR MORE harshly than any nation’s military/foreign policy. Government’s just get to hide behind things like “War” and “Collateral Damage” when they directly and deliberately target civilians with Nukes.
I’m not anti Military or Pro PMC but there is a huge difference between the perceptions of their actions. It’s like the difference between the Government losing billions of dollars of your money or a Private company losing investors money (not just mismanaging it but it totally disappearing from the books), the reaction is vastly different yet the action is essentially the same.
Blackwater – dang I forgot. I had brain freeze and couldn’t think of it. I all have you Jim to watch my 6.
No worries, @stvitusdancern – I have had them in that very chair – the “Blue Beret Paras Incident.” 🙁
boot camp
Happy Sunday!
Go on then, sell me Modern warfare! Make me break my NY resolution!
Join SITREP podcast 🙂
One aspect that differs tabletop from Tv/video and videogames is that whereas the last two are primarily digital and I suspect are mostly consumed in isolation, with limited opportunities for socialisation; compared to tabletop being primarily a social activity. As people tire with the virtual experience and seek more social experiences then tabletop gaming has an opportunity to pick this up. Look at Fortnite players seeking and being exploited in social gatherings related to their interest; there’s a primal need that isn’t being met.
Sure, we are seeing some consolidation in our world that is to be expected, but there will be opportunities for low cost, indie tabletop gaming ideas especially where they are being innovative.
Welcome to all the new backstagers 🙂
Bravo Two Zero was the call sign of an eight-man British Army SAS patrol, deployed into Iraq during the First Gulf War in January 1991. According to Chris Ryan’s account, the patrol was given the task of gathering intelligence, finding a good lying-up position (LUP) and setting up an observation post (OP) on the Iraqi Main Supply Route (MSR) between Baghdad and North-Western Iraq, while according to another, the task was to find and destroy Iraqi Scud missile launchers along a 250 km (160 mi) stretch of the MSR.
I’m a big fan of Moderns. I’ve lost count of the number of 28mm Rangers in Humvees I’ve Ambushed/Lead through the streets of Mogadishu. I should really get my own minis at some point.
Hands down my favourite period is the Soviets in Afghanistan. You can adapt almost any later scenarios to fit the era. Just replace the Trained Troops with Soviets. It’s also great since it’s essentially Bad Guys v Bad Guys. The Commies vs the guys who would become Al Qaeda/Taliban makes it easier for people who are a bit apprehensive to get into the period.
@avernos Force on Force does have Civilians in it and they act similar to the way you guys are talking about. They can just run around terrified blocking line of sight. They can be aggressive towards one side but not outright hostile, the enemy controls them but they can’t physically damage you. Or they can be outright hostile, hiding enemies in their ranks and you have to decide what to do.
@warzan with regards to the leaving men behind thing it might also depend on the PR perspective. If you lose a handful of SEALs killing Bin Laden or Al Baghdadi the Public will be more “tolerant” of those losses than if the same men were killed taking out a routine weapons cache.
Little personal story. I was at a Military Base here in Australia taking part in an Wargames Tournament (I’m not military active or retired) and a General of some stripe was supposed to come and take a look a the gaming since it was being run by the ADF Wargaming Association and he cancelled because a Soldier was killed, a General stopped his plans and personally went to the family of that soldier.
There’s a lot of interviews with Eric Prince the guy who founded Black Water and his business model was basically. 1. Recruit ex military. 2. Do what the Military does but better, for less and with less resources. 3. Specialise in not failing. And he made a fortune although he did end up taking a giant hit after all the negative media attention Blackwater got which wasn’t 100% his fault since Blackwater became synonymous with Military Contractors so they copped everything anyone did.
Mercenaries aren’t new. Not having Mercenaries is new. Mercenaries used to be the default. You went to war and the first thing you did was hire independent Mercenaries, they gave you trained, well equipped and motivated men right away. In the Industrial era that was replaced with Conscription and Shame. If you were a military aged man in Britain (No Conscription and a small Military, Naval pressing is NOT what people claim it is) in the Napoleonic Period it is unlikely you’d be shamed into the military, compare that to WWI where men were given white feathers if they didn’t enlist.
Boxes and bubble wrap – Chuck in some eps and it’s another day in the office! But congrats!
You couldn’t stick the first batch of tape on Justin – you’d rip his hair out…. (love ya @dignity)
Not a massive moderns gamer and skirmish games are a bit of a turn off but to me modern gaming its still the Soviets coming through the Fulda Gap in the 1980’s a place by coincidence that Napoleon led his troops after the French defeat at Leipzig in 1814
Modern boot camp PLEASE!
Preferably Spectre but anything else would do for me as well 😎
Only a handful of figures to paint so we all (me) could focus on the gaming side. Imagine all those awesome scenarios we could play through 🤤
I can barely control my excitement now!!
I’d even be prepared to share my multi cam/ mtp speed painting recipe for this 😬
Dawn, Gianna and Jim will have to come over then as well, of course!!
@warzan on the 29th March shipping will be via winged unicorns piloted by leprechauns or Justin operating a drone, the choice is yours….lol… best of luck
Great show, you should have Dawn and Gianna over more if possible.
on the topic of modern warfare.
I was working on a ruleset for a metal gear solid game and I had it so that there were 3 levels to the opfor. They would be on patrol,alert,contact depending on player choices (making noise, being spotted etc) if playing in 2 player, this means the early game for opfor isn’t as involved but they need to focus on their force setup whereas the operative player has a full on single miniature espionage game from the start. As he alerts more Opfor, the opfor player gains more and more control of his troops.
Typically, early in the game, the opfor player is rolling random directions for patrolling units until they make contested roles against the operative to spot them.
I included alot of rules with objectives like trying to identify a single hostage to rescue, carrying hostages, knocked out opfor’s, hiding bodies etc.
This can totally work with an AI deck. on each AI card, have a list of 3 actions, one for patrol,alert and contact. or if its less organised forces, maybe patrol, alert, broken? to represent their morale?
OH! I had interrogation and information in the mgs game! this was great as you would roll off against the opponent and depending on your success they could tell you the truth, lie to you or reveal info that is useful but not entirely what you were after, I don’t remember what my AI answer to this was though, I’d have to dig out the files.
If anyone is interested, I might be able to make this available. It wasn’t finished but it’s playable and I think quite adaptable to modern wargaming with potential for rpg levels of play
Please do make it available via projects on this site.
The idea of a small team of specialists vs AI controlled guards is one I’d love to see done.
It would be useful for Rainbow 6, Ghost Recon, Splinter Cell and to some extent a zombie survival game as well.
I’m not so sure if total random patrol routes are a solution, but there would definitely have to be some sort of mechanic to force the opfor player to make choices as to when and where his units patrol.
I dont remember if it was totally random, I think it may not be! We shall see. I’ll dig out the files and make a project at some point soon!
Just finished my basing on my american civil war figures and Warzen brings my cock up…. a lovely surprise and thanks.. i feel next sunday show could be a rude one….
Thanks Boss man
Alan
Another thought in Modern Warfare is the role of the media. Do you use a more difficult insertion point to hide from the glare of the media to hide tactics and tech etc ? I can envisage a game with a pre-planning stage. You are handed a scenario with time limit to complete. You have allocated resource points to complete the mission but they have time penalties. Do you wait 24 hours for special forces to become available or do you send in armed police now? Do you wait for further Intel to become available which would aid the actual mission?
If they made a film on real soldiers it’d mainly consist if them dicking about and getting drunk. The conversations would be predominantly beer sports and women unless they’re on exercise then it would general moaning about the weather food and lack of beer….lol
I prefer to alternative scenarios if I’m modern wargaming which is why I like Team Yankee.
Isn’t Jarhead that movie ?
@warhammergrimace – that was certainly my general experience.
Using / training with service rifle: 1% (and I wound up as a range coach, besides).
Using / training with mop and/or shovel: 99%
Good morning all!
So have to disagree on the comment about those above 03 (CPT) being more mission first over the well being of the wounded. There are those few glory hounds that fall into that category at the higher ranks but by and large that is not the case. I have personally witnessed one one one interactions with generals that have emotionally struggled with those types of situations and there is always hard gut wrenching decisions that are being made, but in the end trying to do what is right for the well being of the line troops comes first. That is the aspect of senior leadership that most in the junior ranks never see and is not something that we share often with others.
As I know I’ve shared before, I can’t play any modern game because it’s too close to home having lost very close friends and neighbors in those recent conflicts, but I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion of today’s show! Keep them coming with this excellent dialog.
And your dead right on taking out PowerPoint and you will cripple he U.S. military!
On the topic of peaking out, I’m personally there and starting to downsize significantly. I’ve narrowed it down to three game systems. Everything else must go, I expect the glut of games on the market is going to create a lot of failed game systems. I’m not a business guy so not sure how that will impact the overall industry, but expect more and more of us will begin to specialize in just a few systems. As far as TV I’m very picky.
Thank you mate I’m very aware of the difficulties in discussions around this (and other factual settings) I’m also acutely aware that I dont have particularly the best skill set for navigating these discussions at times. But it’s so interesting that I really want to try (and do it justice) so that comment meant a lot mate 🙂
I will promise to come play the game you invent of modern warfare though when you create it, just give me a scenario like a hostage rescue not in the Middle East and I’m there!
BTW wish you were here today for the Rorkes Drift!
That would indeed be a blast! Hope you recorded it, would love to paint away while watching and listening to it!
The visitor center is flipping awesome! Having seen it before and after you guys truly did an amazing job! Now I just have to convince the wife to move back to Coleraine!
yes like the idea of the modern …
plus are going to put a link to the ebay outlet on your TT site as another way to get to it?
good weekend all
Happy Sunday!
I think I’m at the peak of entertainment simply through gaming YouTube channels. My Watch Later queue is getting out of hand – I’m going to have to delete some to get it under control. It’s peak times for armchair gaming fans!!
Good show guys. WWE looks like a good game