July 4, 2012 by dignity
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Darrell & Justin discuss the new system of challenging independent characters in the new 40K 6th edition... but who will be the new kings of close combat?
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To bad Arjac has to challenge himself to death 🙁
what about logan grimnar….shame darrell missed him… he has a +2up/+4up armor/ward save and with his axe you are getting off 5 power fist attacks 6 on the charge. and only one less wound than calgar
Squad leaders are characters too. The example on page 63 gives a SM vet sarge as an example.
Is Bjorn a character? I think Dreadknights can challenge as well. Would something like that be effective against Abbadon?
what about orikan powered up with 2 chronometrons attached,plus a Dlord for P enemy. no armor saves, rerolls to hit,s,t7 A4 not bad, 2 rerolls, but thats situational since he might not be powered up.
obyron does have the 2+ so he doesnt care about ap3 pweapons…
or the Dlord T6 no ID, with PE, not bad ap1. whats abaddons invuln?
As well as unit leaders! (I know it is said before) Haven´t you noticed that?
The avatar could go close! And karandras I 7 A 7 on the charge don’t dismiss the spandex and the hive tyrant with lash wip would destroy him . Swarm lord ?
From the 6th ed rule book, page 64 bottom paragrath of “Fighting a challenge” :
“For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.”
Mindshackle Scarabs + Warscythe = Stop hitting yourself Abbadon + Splat 🙂
Hallucogenic grenades might be of use too!
Daemon weapons are power weapons, Drach’nyen strikes at S8 AP3 and re-rolls failed to wound rolls, so abaddon bounces his hits off terminator armour, so who beats abaddon? Calgar, will do it. Who’ll beat Calgar?
Lysander? He has 1 less attack but a better invul. IIRC Logan used to be able to beat Calgar, although with his axe being gimped and the changes to preferred enemy that might not be the case anymore.
On the video I don’t see my GK techmarines hating this. Give them the warding stave and they can tie up the opposing sarge while keeping his squad buffed with the grenades. Now extra cool, especially if you pay for brain mines as well(which I do anyway)
Also having looked at the CSM FAQ, they got kinda screwed. Abaddon is hitting with Ap3, and poor old Kharn is now hitting at I1 thanks to his axe, which means he stands a good chance of getting killed first by a power/force weapon.
I bet the new codex will overrule that lol
He will always be awesome
I’m what now?
I’m not 100% sure on this one so forgive me if I’m obviously wrong but I don’t think that Mephiston or the Sanguinor or Death Company Tycho can challenge anyone as they are all one man units and don’t have the independent character special rule.
You don’t have to be an Independent Character to fight in challenges, just a character which is a new unit type and includes named special characters. mephiston is mentioned by name on the characters page.
Thanks for clarifying.
As it stands challenges will not be an issue for my Eldar HQ as I generally take a Farseer and an Avatar.
The Farseer is mounted in a Falcon and never intentionally gets out anyway let alone into combat and the Avatar isn’t part of a unit either so it will make no difference as far as he is concerned.
The Exarchs would struggle but I can’t see my opponents big CC hero wasting a round of combat just to take out the Exarch not when he could decimate the unit instead.
I think the losers will be the big named characters as you say.
I’m not sure how useful your Farseer will be to you stuck in a Falcon any more fella… Don’t you need line of site to use Psychic abilities in 6th ed..?
I’m sure for Eldar Psychic powers, Doom, Fortune and Guide no you don’t. I only need los for the shooty powers of which he takes only one for a rainy day.
His sole job is to enhance my armies abilities, not get himself into trouble
they faq’d psychic powers. guys in transports can only affect themselves, the unit in the transport, or the transport itself.
p67 BRB under dclare a target, it says:
“Unless otherwise stated, the Psyker must have line
of sight to his target. This means that a Psyker embarked on
a Transport can only target himself, his vehicle or another unit
embarked on the same vehicle as the Psyker”
the eldar power don’t say anything about not needing LoS, so… they do now.
Since no Ork in the whole Codex has eternal warrior, I’ll have to get an Ork Warboss on a Warbike… I think that’s the toughest i’ll ever get.
Doesn’t Ghazghkull get it from one of his pieces of wargear?
You’re right… Forgot about the adamantium skull thing. In fact, it says: immune to instant death… Maybe that’s why I first missed it as I was looking for the Eternal Warrior special rule.
Swarmlord would be pretty nasty, or a Bloodthirster.
the broodlord 83 points: ws7 bs 0 s 6 t 5 w 3 i 7 a 4 ld 10 sv 4+
rerolls 1s to hit, rerolls to wounds if strengh is equal or greater than ememys toughness, rending, implant attack (to wound roll of 6 causes instant death),and the icing on the cake, hypnotic gaze (both players roll a d 6 and add their leadership if the broodlord rolls equal or higher than the targets score, that model may not attack in the ensuing combat)
Ok.. a Destroyed lord with two cryptec with crono’s.
hey guys love what your doing haven’t read the new rule book yet but wondering does this make those strong characters your talking about less effective in combat now. I play grey knights and i love my draigo wing army and now with the new rules i think im going to take a fortress of redemtion as my long range shotting and sit a troop choice of 1 paladin inside. but back to the point now instead of having abadon or arjak having to do their attacks across the group i can now just take all their attacks on the one paladin so i may definitly lose that one charecter but if i get to go at initiative 6 i may have a chance of putting a couple of wounds on him before i die. also with that space wolf squad could i do multiple challenges for each charectrer you and i have. I imagine my apothecary wont last long any more but i might just keep rejecting the challenges with him.
I would go with a wolf lord on a thunder mount, thunder hammer, wolf tooth, runic armor, storm shield, saga of the bear to take on abandon.
Palains will be better because they all benefit from the character rules as they are characters in the reference at the back of the book.
The ultimate bodyguards with the draigo still be able to take 90% of the hits with 2+ look out sir 🙂
I would say that Typhus is quite good when compared to Abaddon. FAQ makes Manreaper both a Daemon weapon and a Force Axe. It also counts as a poison weapon. Destroyer Hive causes enemy units to not gain their bonus Attacks for charging Typhus or unit he has joined. He is pretty survivable for not having a invul save.
The Good
Manreaper: Force Axe, Daemon, Poison
Mark of Nurgle + Termi armour + Feel no Pain
Destroyer Hive
The Bad:
Strikes at the same time as Power Fists
No Invul
No Eternal warrior
5+ invul but better than nothing
To know who a character is check the back of the book for the reference of everything, this is where the reference for hull points
In that reference it will say who is classed as a character if your unsure
It’s interesting that one of the coolest combat characters is a member of the Imperial Guard!
Colonel “Ironhand” Straken has WS5, S:6 (S:7 on a charge), hits at I:3 (I:4 on a charge), with 3 attacks (5 on a charge) that ignore armour saves (or use 2D6 to penetrate vehicles).
I’ve checked the FAQ and he hasn’t been changed from the Codex (other than to clear up some text), so he doesn’t have a power weapon, he’s just rock!
He also has Counter Attack and Furious Charge (which he also gives to his puny guard mates)… all round he’s an auto-include in my new Veteran Guard Army… sorry Orks, you’re going on hold for a while. 😀
Iron hand actually effectively has 4 attacks, since he has a CCW and pistol, but, he’s a bit of a glass cannon with only a 3+/5++ save, and importantly, no eternal warrior, so unless abaddon rolls a 1 and Drach’nyen hits him(funny thing, now daemon weapons are more effective against their owners since the rebellion attack ignores armour save…) any one of abaddon’s 6-10 S8 attacks-that go first- gets an unsaved wound and Iron hand becomes “thin greasy paste Straken”..
Hmm I do have the old model convert as part of my armageddon ork hunter kill team, and that may become my new ‘counts as’ col for my new gaurd I have had on the shelf a mixed regiment of survivors from armageddon.
unless i’m mistaken, he’s I3 on the charge, as furious charge no longer gives +1I. and even though he has 3 attacks in his profile, he always gets 4 for having 2 CCWs.
and, good find ;).
Never mind Straken- one of the best assets the Guard have from a challenging point of view is your no-frills squad Sergeant. Sure, he’ll die, but in doing so, he’ll be holding up whatever ridiculous HQ choice your opponent is fielding for a full round of combat, giving you a better chance of winning the combat overall.
A nemesis dreadknight with a greatsword will take abaddon now (until the new book of course) lol
But people have the forgotten the big bad swarmlord and making his opponent re-roll failed saves ouch!
Woah guys what about Lysander? Lysander is the man. Eternal Warrior, 4 wounds and a massive hammer. His rules arnt shabby either.
Crowe seems to be better now, I’ll even put money on Crowe to beat Abaddon. Maybe Gabriel Seth will do better Str 8 I-5 but no power weapon. But Capt Tycho maybe the dark horse here. Capt stats and you get no armor save, the death company one sounds good to. But I hate the guy’s fluff. After reading it I don’t know how the hell he can be called a marine. I may use his stat page but would have to use a different captain model and give him a new name.
I think Chaos Daemons a no-name herald of Slaanesh on a chariot with it’s strength buffed could be quite scary if you still get your Hammer of Wrath in the challenge. Weighs in at a stonking 75 points and on the charge you’d normally be looking at 7 x S5 I7 Rending attacks with measly toughness 4 but 5 wounds and eternal warrior. With the new chariot rules though there’s D6 S6 I10 attacks added on. That’s up to 13 attacks and I realise there’s maybe some contention on this but Hammer of Wrath, the hits are done at AP – but rending kicks in when you roll to wound and nothing says that doesn’t still happen.
You’d have to be phenomenally lucky but you could see 6 unsavable wounds at I10 and even that aside, taking an average of 10 attacks at I7 or over that’s pretty scary in my book.
Just remembered chaplain Cassius toughness 6 may work and even Kor’sarro Khan.
In this edition I feel sorry for those that play armies that are not close combat heavy and don’t have charachters that are able to survive challenge. Squad leader might be able to protect them for one turn but squad leaders won’t last long either against charachters that are close combat beasts.
High Marshal Helbrecht from Black Templars will be pretty good for challenges
As other have mentioned, the index in the back marks lots of guys as characters – especially in the Grey Knight army, all paladins are I believe as well as most squad sgts.
Abaddon is indeed AP3, so not so scary against 2+ saves.
Eternal warrior is not such a big thing for a lot of characters (T5+) unless facing a force weapon or strength 10.
I can actually see the challenge being used by guard sgts to stop the mega characters tearing a unit apart (Do you get bonus to combat res if you overkill like in fantasy? still not got my book yet) On that note can you challenge a specific character or just the unit? That will make a big difference for some armies.
As for challenge worthy characters – non-named characters seem good (Especially necron lords with warscthes), I think Vect for the Dark Eldar could do really well against most characters and any unusual characters (Bjorn, Dreadnights etc) could be very powerful depending on opposition.
Think it may well be a very double edged sword – for instance challanging a unit with a sanguinary priest could allow the priest to go hide and prevent any attacks onto him. Also you may have to dodge challenges from reletively cheap single characters that are designed to go in challange and delay a unit for a turn or two. (Cheap tau commander – iradium armour and shield generator plus a couple of flamers, and a failsafe detonator maybe for 2+/4++ comes in at 111 points can harass a bit and then give other units time to pull clear and deliver a nasty goodbye)
Lol, I don’t think beer ogre was trying to compare Straken to Abbadon anyway. It’d be a weird rule set that allows any guard member to top the best guy in CSM codex so not really a good fight to point out.
Lysander has three wounds and Calgar has 4 attacks base (+1 for dual wielding) so would usually eat him some Lysander.
I think the rule here is normal intiative power weapons on any squad leaders and rely on special characters to issue challenges and squad leaders to take them. If your leader dies that is one wound and you probably were losing combat anyway. If your leader wins then they can’t be picked out and will likely continue to own face. Either way if your special character is also in you stand a much better chance of winning overall combat by allowing him to hit the redshirts while the leader takes the fall.
Lysander has 4 wounds just like Calgar, and a storm shield, but Calgar re-rolls failed wounds and gets 2 more attacks, assuming neither is charging. Without working it out mathematically, my initial impression is it’s close enough that neither one of them could be as confident about it as they would be going up against the 6th ed nerfed Abaddon(at least ’till the new codex in a few months then I fully expect Abaddon to be terrifying once more)
I’ve been playing 40K since 2nd ed. You at BOW have dubbed this edition as evolved, I feel that it has de-evolved. The slap dash way the new rule have been chosen (randomly I think) speaks of a rush job to get product out. all it seems they have done is brought back old rules (overwatch, AP in CC, etc) and modified them to make them “different” but they complicate and limit game play and army variety (ie ‘nids are hurtin’ here. Maybe they are phasing them out like Squats). Also the attempt at injecting Fantasy Battle rules (Challenges, Chariots?, etc) is just sloppy game making. This Edition does not seem like it has be playtested thoughly and that they all used “Shooty” armies to do the play testing leaving the CC armies to rot. Also to reenforce my idea that this was a rush job the fact that they don’t have a starter box set on the release of the book, where in 5th they had the black reach set to go with it, instead they are putting one out in the fall. I feel that I want to start a movement of playing 5th until they put out a well rounded and properly playtested 7th Ed.
Also, Another point for rush job, is what Warren stated in the previous video, Why wern’t updated rules for the suppliments (ie Cityfight, etc) added in. A set of intellegent designers would have found a way to integrate these in. once again I may wait till 7th comes out, which will probably be in 2-4 years.
I use the term ‘evolve’ as a neutral term. I’m not sure I would classify something that has evolved as better, but rather it evolves to suit the ‘conditions’ it finds itself in.
Changing a rule set to make games bigger and allow people to buy models from across the range, is how its evolved – if you get my meaning 🙂
Indeed, many evolutionary dead ends in nature. Having flicked through and talked with people that have played I get the feeling that 6th will be as enjoyable as 8th was to fantasy – that is to say great fun to play with friends which seems to be the new marked direction Workshop are taking.
Now if that evolutionary step is because they cannot (whole possible number of reasons why that may be the case) balance the game to the tight ruleset set tournament players want (Not specifically 40k but wargaming tournament players – so unambigeous rules and largely balanced armies) or because as a company they have decide to try and focus on their arguably strongest assets – minatures and background or indeed something else is an interesting question.
@unsummoner, is it random rule picking or is it drawing upon a history fo rules and including the player favourites to create a dynamic game. Oh and as for suppliments – I wouldn’t be suprised to see them revisted prehaps in the same way Blood in the Badlands revised seige in warhammmer fantasy.
I’m not arguing the size of play. I have a sizeable Vanilla SM Army(“the Sons of Kasperov” Chess themed army), I have a problem with them not really thinking things through and just putting out a set of what seems to to me to be randomly generated rule additions that slow up what was a fairly good paced game in 5th. I love my army and I love playing it and painting new minis, I love the story of this universe but what’s ruining it is the utter lack of fairness in game play between the factions. Any faction should be able to defeat another faction based on an even # of points, not on how many uber units they can field as Troops or rules they can exploit. which is what I see happening with the GW games.
When I was speaking about dynamic I was refering to providing rules to create a narrative focus, and I do think snapfire etc helps do that – how much that will slow a game will vary. I had no real issues with 5th, it was pretty much 4th with a shave and a haircut. THe points you raise about game balance is the issue I was raising with regard to the change in direction – but since I was actively playing tournaments back in 3rd ed 40k and 6th ed fantasy there have always been massive imbalance – more so in fantasy to the point one GT the top 5 tables had the same army both sides.
It is not probably something that will effect me as I am more likely to be facing players who collect an army because they like the models or have a theme in mind. No tournaments for me anymore. On that basis, these rules look good. Even then I will run into cheesy/beardy lists occassionally, and may by accident create one, but if it becomes a factor I will either not play the army or change mine. I find no enjoyment in getting tabled with little I can do, or tabling someone with no effort.
In order to put the thought in you mention they would need to do a complete reset, as they have done with the placeholder booklet to cover all armies and redo everything. It would require rules and books to be developed to near final draft simultaneously, in a fashion PP did with warmahordes MK2. I simply do no think that given the GW business model that is an option for them.
Ooops forgot to add, the one thing 5th failed to do, get me enthused to play. Which is a pretty big flaw.
I was intending on getting into some tourneys this year but now I don’t feel any desire to play. Even casually. I still have my 5th rules and I’ll just wait and see when 7th comes out. but I wouldn’t be surprised if others felt the same way and see a drop in tourney play.
And as for revamping the rule system and Codexes. Maybe they should get a team on that now.
They purposely delayed the boxed set because they know they won’t sell many rulebooks otherwise. In 5th the book (in Canada) was $35. Now it’s $90, so why wouldn’t I get the starter for another $20 or so? They won’t sell a single hardback once the starter set comes out IMHO.
Are we looking at the same rulebook? I play vanilla marines and have yet to find a single rule that will benefit my armor oriented lists. They’ve nerfed everything and my vehicles will be glanced to death in no time. Our assault choices suck except for assault termies (and even they everyone is already swapping out their basic power weapons for AP2 stuff). Our characters will get wiped in challenges except maybe Lysander and Calgar (who are overpriced for what they give us). It’s looking pretty bad for my ultrasmurfs right now. I admit, this is based upon my read through and not having played any games yet. I’m planning to play my existing lists and see how badly they do before I remodel anything.
Okay. I found a rule change that helps – artillery. My Thunderfire cannon is now more survivable as it is no longer a vehicle and gets T7 W2 and S3. Time to buy or model a couple more I guess, since tanks are toast now. BTW, snapshooting won’t help me a bit as I can’t roll a 6 to save my life.
… should be Sv3 not S3.
Nids will still be amazing if used right ! Just not boring armies of stellers . Just think how devours will do on overwatch . And all MCs have got even better Fex’s are good again to and flying MC’s…. the list goes on I’ve played 40k since 2nd ed and after 4 games with different armies I can say it’s better than ever . Yer they could have done more but that could have risked destroying GW’s top earner.
Eldar Prince Yriel: WS 6, Init 7, 4 Attacks. His spear (can also be thrown 12″) always wounds on a 2+ and ignores armor saves! Is also S9 vs vehicles.
I hadn’t notices the Ap 3 thing until this post and I think that’s a game changer. My Blood Angels friend with Mephiston is most disappointed 😀 That means Ghazghkull doesn’t need to be on his Waaagh, he’ll still get his 2+ anyway. In fact even @warzan‘s favourite, the humble Meganob, could be in with a shout. Abaddon hits first but the Meganob gets a 2+ to all his attacks where as Abaddon will be on his 4+ invulnerable to the PK on the Meganob. Abaddons sheer number of attacks might grind it down right enough but the Meganob would still be in with a shot 🙂
I’m very confused please make a game !!!!
I think the evesor assassin from the grey knights would totally kill.
BASE WS8, S4,T4, I7, A4
Then on the charge he gets Furious Charge and +D6 attacks
Mephiston is T6 I believe, so only psychic power weapons can one shot kill him, but with such a high initiative, and hiw own psychic powers, he can kill any foe before any grey knioghts touch him ! =)
@bloodangel90 that was perhaps true in 5th but it’s not the case anymore. Take Mephiston vs a 55 point Grey Knight paladin with a Daemon Hammer. Mephiston hits first and can give himself S10 and preferred enemy but that doesn’t help him much cutting through a 2+ save with an AP 3 weapon in his hand and even with his large number of attacks it’s fairly likely not a single one would get through. The Paladin on the other hand is hitting him with an AP 2 weapon so Mephiston doesn’t get any save against any that land and with it being counted as a Thunder hammer (could be wrong, don’t play GK) the new rule is he’s down to I1 the next turn so after round 1 the Paladin is taking the wounds off him first.
Not done the maths to see if Mephiston’s large number of attacks and wounds would win out but the point is that’s a piddly 55 point model vs what was one of the ultimate killers in 5th Ed and it’s actually now a threat to him. It’s a changed game!
Skulltaker on a Juggernaut.
Mephiston would trash almost anyone in a challenge. Transfixing gaze, S10, and Artificer Armour. Who cares if he isn’t an Eternal Warrior?
good luck with that AP3 nerf bat 😉 normally I plasma him to death, but TH/SS terminators (or marines i guess) won’t have a huge problem with him. he also has a power sword specifially, so it can’t be changed out.
I’ve played him vs death wing (fearless) and he’s pretty dinky there, and he cost more than the entire squad.
rock characters really need a 2+ an invuln and an AP2 (or 1) weapon. necron lords can actually do all of that (And at I2, S/T 7/5), but it costs 160-175 points… they get mindshackle though.
I wouldn’t admire Abbadon’s chances against the Swarmlord or a Broodlord with Hypnotic Gaze