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The Weekender XLBS: Ace RPG Terrain & The Others 7 Sins!
August 17, 2014 by dignity
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Great Show, Thanks.
Haaaaaapppppyyy Sunday!
🙂
You use dot 3 break fluid on resin. Including finecast.
I accidentally left a FW leman Russ turret in a dettol for about a month once, was also rubberized. Ooppss.
GW should stock everything that the FLGS stocks if they want to recapture their dwindling market and understand their competition.
Sponsored / supported school clubs is the answer to recruitment. If Mantic had a good School pack you could recruit at the grass roots. Particularly in the Autumn term when ‘Winter is Coming’.
I remember GW did sell a club pack a while ago, that was useful
There used to be quite a large emphasis on people starting up clubs and loads of support for it. It was a shame to see them move away from that. Especially considering how poorly staffed the stores have got recently.
Great show guys. A note on recruitment, we are looking to do recruitment at conventions (and there are quite a few of them about) and then provide ongoing support at the conventions via organised play. We are also looking at club visits and in store days. That approach works for our demographic that is the older players. Snagging the kids and new players is still an issue but is an interesting topic to consider further.
great show, and great idea.
hell if the guy selling mobile phone cases or the lass selling hair extensions can afford a booth in a shopping centre surely mantic/PP/warlord can afford one
Justin , I have access to some tablets if you need them, to help your wiggly little man problem. you can also get a nasal spray for that problem. But I would suggest not leaving you little man in Dettol for that long, by the way, where did you put it to feel like you needed to Dettol it for 4 days??
flash concentrate for about 2 hours….. no side effects other than you skin going red (wear gloves when scrubbing)
I would love to see pop up booths, almost like the convention stands. So most companies probably have enough portable equipment to run one straight off the bat 🙂
I have to say – I had no intention of getting in on the Dungeon Saga KS because I’d just put over $200 on the Zombicide one. Also, I had no intention of dungeon crawling.
I watched the Dungeon Saga demo last week and I was overcome with nostalgia. I immediately put money down on it and now I cannot wait to play it – and I really want to go through all sorts of dungeons!
Please play some dungeon games for us to watch! I don’t normally believe in watching others play games but I don’t want to be buying other games until Saga comes out!
Diablo 3 is out on Xbox 1 in two days so that’ll hopefully satisfying my loot needs until then 🙂
Great show guys – May I recommend Dead Man’s hand for wild west gaming – excellent little game.
With regard to recruitment I agree it is necessary, but I also feel a company benefits from long term face to face support. Complete agree about the veteran’s ‘loitering’ I think this is where club support or gaming centres are helpful – away from point of entry but also supporting ongoing engagement.
I don’t see why a separate kiosk is needed necessarily – surely with proper financial incentives, space allowing, local gaming stores or even toy and craft stores could house these seasonal hobby recruitment stalls. Small table and stand with company staff and a professional display. Of course that may creating issues with other suppliers – so maybe not hmm.
Re Justin’s problem. I get quite a lot of emails about this. I can forward you a few if you like.
Great show, always look forward to watching this on a Sunday. Justin having problems with spray cans seems to be a reoccurring theme.
Warren, I have never heard you get it so wrong. I started serious gaming with RPG’s, as Warhammer was only just being prepared for release. I was the DM, and so I collected the monsters. I ended up with so many miniatures that when we bought a copy of the warhammer “harry” box set, I found I had enough miniatures to paly a tabletop wargame. We stated with Lego as we could “break” the castle walls down, then moved to the mini’s. I have three 4 foot long bookshelves of RPG games, and one of Tabletop games. My miniatures collection, while I can play tabletop, is directed towards RPG’s. Yes, some thing can be done in your imagination, but mini’s make combat easy. I have a 24 metre x 12 metre garage shed, that will only fit 2 cars in (just). Pity I cannot post a picture here to show you. RPG’s done well takes the most space.
Fair point. (And believe me I really do try and not generalise) but is this you or the majority of RPGs players who do this? 🙂
Most of my friends have done the same, much to the annoyance of our wives/partners. One shipping container for the house and one for the toys when we move.
I resemble that remark (not quiet as bad as Mattgro, but similar)
the majority of people I know in my generation started with RPG’s in Australia and New Zealand, and gaming came later.
My experience with DnD is pretty limited – especially these days – but I’d say probably not more than half of the games I played in / saw at my gaming club featured miniatures, and most of those could easily have done without them. People like them, so they include them.
But DnD is only one game. I’m not aware of any other RPGs that routinely use miniatures. In the late 90’s/early 2000s when I was doing most of my roleplaying, the vast majority of RPGers I knew played White Wolf games, and there were a bunch of others too.
Obviously it varies from place to place, and it may be the case that DnD has had a bit of a comeback (while other games are much less played than they used to be), but as a generalisation I think it’s fair to say that most RPG groups don’t use miniatures.
I have to agree with Warren, we played RPG’s for many years, aside when wizards released a new edition and prompted a new set of books, space wasn’t a problem. Wargaming, that’s a whole can of worms, now looking at building a man cave to house the ever expanding collection.
The local FLGS in Swansea where I live runs events geared around specific game systems. They’ll run games all day and even discount the range for the whole event. This alternating coverage really gives the place a feeling of things going on all the time. The GW over the road is always pretty dark and empty however.
thx guys. about stripping paint – thats why I use fairy – its safe for models.
Yes please Sons of anarchy gameplay.
Good show guys. A lot to think about there with stores! How else can people to introduced to the hobby?
Hi, great show do you know battle systems is comming to kick starter on I think the 20th with there dungeon terrain.
Mr Floppy’s discovery will be good for games that use TLS. After everymove you just need to fold them up behind the nearest cover.
Dettol usually only takes a few hours to start removing the paint. 4 Days!
In regards to recruitment local clubs should probably do more to attract new people into the hobby. I’ve been a member of several over the years in which the hasn’t been any new blood for a long time, and no motivation to drag in new people.
The local hobby stores should probably combine their efforts with the local clubs to set up demo days at the store. So local club members run demos of games down the store, and it kills two birds with one stone. The store gets additional help advertising the product, and the club has the ability to recruit new members. And like wise the store could attend a club night to demo new games to the existing player base.
Storage was recently a big issue for me. I moved to a new area and new house, basically from Wales to Bath, so from a 3 bed, where I had a man room, or as the other half called it the Junk room, to a 2 bed. This meant I lost my man cave, I now have a painting table in the bedroom, and some stuff has been placed in durable plastic boxes in the shed. It also made me reevaluate my collection, and I hacked through my horde and was really strict on what should go with me to new place and what should be sold. There is definitely a hoarders mentality with this hobby. I had stuff which had been in boxes for years, never painted and never gamed with, which I decided that if I hadn’t done anything with it after two plus years then get rid, and let someone else use it. I also went through all my blister pack and opened them up to make more room. It’s an insane hobby at times, and it dosent help when there is so much new shiny available, lol….
@Warren – want a “21 or bust” style card mechanic – checkout the “One-up-One down” card mechanic in the Infamy KS Videos!
…and your deja-vu wasn’t by any chance related to the C&W song
“If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me…
but don’t worry if I feel a little floppy – I’ve been Dettolled” ?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/direbadger/direbadger-lasercut-roleplay-town-and-dungeon-terr
Most game systems don’t really need (and can’t afford) dedicated stores, they have starter sets that guide you trough the first steps in the hobby and are great entry points. Besides that there are lots of webs like you beastsofwar that can inform interested people and recruit them into our hobby. If we take into account all those potential customers that don’t know the wargaming industry it would be easier to just spend some money in adverticing, just show them a glimpse of what we do to start that itch and make them investigate a little. Most of us got to the industry trough Heroquest because it had a toy-like adverticement campaign that targeted the general public.
Warren, you need to try and run a store. I ran an independent toy store/hobby shop in a town with a population of around 190 000. I had three gaming tables in the store, and a glass display cabinet that doubled as a counter at the front of the store. It displayed a range of painted miniatures and scenery. Model trains and accessories were also displayed. I trained my staff to talk to the customers and let them guide themselves to the products they wanted. in the first year I reduced the GW mail-order/postal sales to almost zero for the 300km around my store. There are two other stores in the area who did just as you described the bad stores, but the interests in the hobbies increased in the area and their sales also went up. I had regular gaming days and nights, and it kept my store busy, not just with hobby sales but others as well, as girlfriends/dads and mums all went shopping while the kids played. As soon as I sold the business, the new owner removed the tables to increase the “selling” space for other products. Foot traffic fell significantly as did sales. It was interesting to note that GW set up their own store which has not done very well at all. The other two independent stores have also now closed as the interest in the hobby fell over the next year. It does not matter who runs the store, but how that store is run that makes the difference in growing the hobby.GW should just drop their stores, and spend the money on helping independent stores out. It reduces the overheads for them and allows them to focus on the game and miniatures, it allows the market to set the prices without interference from the manufacturer. This avoids two problems, the perception of GW raping the market for profit and creates real competition in the market place, not the quasi competition that currently exists.
I found myself nodding in agreement all through this until you referred to it not mattering who runs the store but how it is run. The two are inherently linked, the store owner (assuming they are the face who greets you) is absolutely pivotal. If they do not have the charisma, the gravitas to deal with the intimidating individuals that Warren referred to and the ability to detach their shiny shiny brain from their business brain the shop will only ever be an expensive hobby rather than a sustainable business.
So many of the stores I’ve visited have made me feel uncomfortable. Whether it be the lack of greeting, the smell (yes folks) or the inability to clean the dust off the slow moving stock and move it front/centre. I am one of those individuals who would love to run a store and feel I would make a success of it – but the costs of entry and the tendency for some distributors to have punitive terms for new start-ups has put me off.
I should also say that the likes of Mantic are great at supporting the retail chain. When I originally made contact to discuss terms the help I received was impressive. They are a company I have a lot of time for.
@andrewmdale, you are right, I didn’t express that as I should have, I does not matter who owns the store, but rather how they run it. that is probably the better way, as I could doff and don my “hats” with ease, going from gamer, to salesperson to owner in the blink of an eye. It made a great deal of difference to my staff to see me, as the owner, doing all these different roles.
Im planning a gaming table system to cover my needs based on a 4×4 and a 4×2 which can be joined together.
My plan to reduce space is to use printed mats, and limit the board themes to a desert town and a volcanic area. Under severe space pressure at the moment.
I am building a desert town to cover Malifaux, Wolsung (crews involved with explorers during early Egypt exploration), DUST, Infinity and Warmachine) and a volcanic map covering 40K and maybe Malifaux, (Warmachine?)
If you were only buying one board for the above would you use marine ply or OSB? and what depth of board?
@justin, please in future use fairy power spray, it really does work… Your little wobbly man syndrome (LWMS tm) was caused by the dettol neutralizing the hardener in the resin, and unfortunately as far as i’m aware there is no little pill to make it ha… I mean no way to make it hard again.
About Dungeon Saga: They had to remove the Felicia Day Miniature (they called her Gabrielle Erailc) from the Kickstarter as they have no licence or any approval from Geek and Sundry for it.
Source:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/dungeon-saga-the-dwarf-kings-quest/posts/947098
Perhaps that’s how Dr. Justin will receive his Nobel Prize for science!
re shops: how many people have started as a miniature gamer by just walking past a shop and thinking: “Cool”? I think surprisingly few, most likely they heard something about our hobby from someone else and end up in the store after that.
re storage: having three bedrooms and only needing one, that’s not really the problem… getting the hoard neatly tucked away is a bigger one. I just got a step closer to that: http://unpaintedleadsyndrome.blogspot.com/2014/08/oh-boy.html
re Hirst Arts dungeons: done that and crossing my fingers that the Mantic boys aren’t adding any new tile designs to the Dwarf King’s Hold set… The idea of casting even more tiles on industrial scales… (shudder)
http://unpaintedleadsyndrome.blogspot.be/2012/02/welcome-to-dungeon.html
For storage I use plastic boxes for everything, the really useful range mostly as they lids have good seals, they aren’t watertight when closed, but are good enough to deal with damp for the most part.
I keep my painted minis in Battlefoam trays and bags mostly.
sundays are not complete without a bit of backstage bs. cheers guys
I’d like to see some dungeon delving. I think the Mantic thing is still a bit early days, how about going with Descent until Mantic get their Kickstarter going? Descent has a campaign mode that could be a bit of fun.
I also agree with Warren about gimmicks such as “celeb” miniatures and don’t get me started on, “me and my glamorous friends playing games”. I suppose it’s ok if you like that sort of thing but it just puts me off.
Hmmm, now I say it though, how about a Warren Ogre miniature with a huge weapon? Fnaar fnaar.
Hey guys….Would love to hear your comments on my discussion of this very topic on where the industry is going and GW’s business model and practices. Please check them out over at my channel…..Crazie German. Let me know what you think. I am pretty well in agreement with what you were saying today Warren. Thanks and Cheers!
Great episode.
Interesting idea on another branded chain of stores, however would there be enough range to warrant a store. One idea would be if a joint venture was set up by some of the major players so they stocked a larger range of products, they could even set up a franchise system enabling people to set up the stores. I also think the best time of year would probably be over Christmas / New Year.
I have been thinking this for a while, regardless of what people think of Games Workshop. As a recruiter they bring something to the industry that others do not. The exception to this is things like your conventions but I suppose most of the con’s that the industry go to aren’t attracting many new players.
I think the kiosk things are a good idea.
As for 7 sins they have also sown envy, wrath and greed, so all 7 are unveiled
pics on their facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Others-7-Sins/1478864392330945?fref=ts
I think one of the main differences between GW stores/ “pop-ups” and the FLGS is location.
In my experience FLGS have to be sought out as they cannot afford the rent/rates of the high profile locations.
GW stores and the suggested pop-ups bring the hobby to the attention of a group of people who may not even know it exists. Ideally they would have print outs with details of local clubs that people could go to as the secondary step.
I agree about the recruitment aspect of what Warren was talking about , but its happening now.
Mantic have there demo teams, they go into stores and have demo days , I am pretty sure Malifaux do the same thing , PP and the others arent games I have played , there not my bag , but the problem I foresee with popup stores in Shopping Arcades is the space you alluded too to play the game , it needs tables and chairs , proper display , is that possible in Westfield , is it possible in Bluewater (although there is a GW store in BW).
It would need at least two people to run it , as they couldnt control the crowd and engage passers by whilst explaining the games and pimping them to the crowd itself.
Another route for them to promote there games , maybe is to promote games in the clubs out there , ask ‘can we set up a few demos and have a retail store’ , which could entice older gamers into finding something new.
One other item I seem to rememeber is GW used to send out stock to stores , gauge the sales in that area and then set up a shop if there was a market.
Was this true?
For storage I can not recommend “really useful boxes” enough! Throw some silica gel bags in for long term storage with paper or card products, great for sticking in the attic. If you are putting things in sheds it’s worth looking up “space bags” once again with silica gel.
Again very interesting in the second part. I had some wonderful experiences as a youngster in a Games Workshop. All what you described, demo games, painting and getting into the hobby. Unfortunately I did quite change over the years and it went more in the direction of what you called “a bad shop”. A guy behind a desk who really wasn’t interested in selling you something.
But I think the model is still eligiable. Maybe its even possbile to provide such experiences as a “normal” hobby store. If you put in some goodies here and then the customers will reappear. Of course you would need more staff than one guy sitting behind a desk 😀
Here in the states you can rent or Buy a Storage container or Conex box as we call them in NY.
Also i would HIGHLY recommend Dead Mans Hand for wild west, it has some of the mechanics you wanted Warren!
Waren I am shocked on how wrong you could think of that.
For starters what good has actually GW stores do tot he hobby? in the UK it is easy to get the misconception they helped, they flooded the place with them and “can” be considered a recruiting or entry point to the hobby, disregarding how many more generic hobby stores died because of them and how they essentially brought a monopoly to the hobby for more than a decade.
BUT, UK is not the world and GW’s stores presence on the world is quite abysmal, more people and more importantly around the world are recruited each day from generic game stores than from GW stores which are not present in most countries and frankly outside UK even in countries they exist are so scarce one could dismiss them as unimportant.
Why should other game companies waste time and effort in creating their own game stores for exclusively their own products (which would also mean try to create a “full experience” like GW did), get in conflicting interests with distributors and game stores and add a “I have my own stores chain” tax on their products and force it on all their customers even the ones who do not have access to any gamestore (or you think GW’s gamestores each makes their own money to stay self sustaining).
I would be far more interested in a distributor making his own global chain of stores or an alliance of game stores and provide globally big well managed gamestores in accessible areas with well trained stuff and a huge variety of products to choose than each manufacturer waste time and effort in managing a retail chain of limited variety and scope.
On another note I must say that the new player is getting worse and worse, the previous was impossible to see on android devices, this one while playable on everything gets frequent server errors and when it actually plays it lags every 2 minutes or so, even if paused to allow for buffering time, it makes all backstage videos an anguish to watch.
An ‘allied’ wargaming store would be a good idea but highly unlikely to be a direct link between actual companies. It would require a 3rd party retailer to combine them all and make their own network of 3rd party stores.
Which ultimately no one has or is likely to lay down the money to do.
As for GW’s presence, its a simple matter of awareness . If it weren’t for GW I can honestly say I would likely have never ventured onto the internet to even see these other budding companies and find interest in partaking in their games were it not for walking past a games workshop at a young age and going “Oooh! That looks awesome”
Reminds me of the individual retailer that I went to a week or so back. There is a GW in the area but I’ve been poking around looking into warmachine and looking for a nearby Infinity retailer.
When I walked in, I couldn’t tell who was staff and who wasn’t there were two people sitting around a table playing magic the gathering in casual clothes. So I didn’t know which one to really ask anything. I stepped inside and looked at the products. No sign of infinity but the atmosphere was eerily and awkwardly really quiet. I’m quite a timid person so this was very very uncomfortable experience for me. None of them made the effort to greet me and although I liked some of the stuff I had seen looking around, it appeared they even sold custom made terrain. I simply ended up asking if they sold infinity, was told no but they could order it and promptly darted out of the store to get some air.
They might have been really nice people but I felt like I had just walked into someones living room and started to poke around their stuff it was horrid.
If I owned a LGS I would:
1) Enforce a uniform, at least a company shirt so people can actually see who is a point of authority within the store. I could have been asking some random ass people for all I know.
2) Pick a flagship game. While companies don’t have stores of there own there isn’t anything stopping a LGS from picking their favored game, one they think they could get a response from publicly and flagshipping it. I.e, I would make my store an ‘infinity’ retail as a base. That would be my version of GW’s come in and try a game perspective (especially with the new starter set).
Of course I would have other products around (except GW they have their own chain for sales) and have them more discretely placed around the store, similar to black library books and such in a GW store.
3) I would keep the veterans of all games around by providing after hours location to play a variety of games, virtually limitless by providing terrain and tables. Remove the display armies and practice scenario stuff in place of blank canvas tables for people to use after hours where you won’t get that awkward look from shoppers with there kids nor will your bigger custom base be off using the second floor of the pub and neither will you shun people wanting to play other systems.
4) Sell terrain kids etc Your regular model store stuff, paints, bases, flock etc etc stuff people will need regularly.
5) provide a gimmick, pay-by-monthly purchase on expensive products, mail-order on request, trade ins & whole-sale army sale (as I’m a painter of a decent quality I could also offer painting services and such)
All the while maintaining a professional, help-free beginner friendly mannerism and professional working environment through out the day like that of a GW, hold events and children-friendly stuff. Granted infinity would be a bit more fiddly to get into then GW products with the new art style that might not be so bad and blahblahblah costs etc.
Ultimately though it does come down to affordability, my dream is to have my own miniature gaming store. It’s not a high payer, its not a career but its something I could happily retire into in the long run vs having people monitoring and overseeing me for the rest of my life.
Unfortunate that the cost of existing on a high street far outweighs the available income because of war-gaming being such a secluded market.
Gotta second ‘coxjul’. Warren, if you haven’t, check out Infamy’s gameplay video’s. Really shaping up to be a fantastic card/dice mechanic.
I’m a lucky guy as I have a full room dedicated to my hobby, complete with drawing board, painting station and gaming table. There are a few bookshelves in there but, as I designed my own gaming table, I was able to make sure that it was also a storage station for my miniatures and terrain and a bookshelf for all the rulebooks and such. I also have a huge closet full of boardgame in this room and a refrigerator, for the beer!
🙂
I have 3 armies for 40k and I also play Infinity. My gaming table is 4×8 so I can play both games on the same surface. I manage to store piles of junk for terrain making behind my drawing board and paint station… Or even under my gaming table! The more my projects progress, the more space I’m able to get back. Untill I start something new, I guess…
😉
Great show as always. Have you considered the possibility of using focus weeks within flgs using staff from the company in question (mantic, hawk, corvus, whoever) in the same way as you guys have a weekly special on one product. They would just need a single table to run demo games with some additional discount or kickbacks for the store during the week. At least this way it would be centered around a hub with a retail outlet for someone to buy in the future. Just a thought as it would be cheaper than running micro pop up stores
GW definitely has, at least since the 90s, had a significant advantage in that they offer such a comprehensive range of products. You know what it is, it’s got this huge amount of background support and buildup, and it comes across as very much the premium brand. Definitely 15 years ago it felt like the Coke and Pepsi of the gaming world, and everything else can feel like a sea of who-knows-what gaming. I’m also kind of surprised other companies haven’t aggressively tried to team up with a major board game manufacturer to make a game sold in general retail stores, the way HeroQuest was.
i suppose a cheap way of promoting their games would be to contact schools and community centres , I know my school history teacher would have tables from his own collection to illustrate certain battles events with a gaming club after hours , for the price of a few starter sets its one way of getting them early.
dekinrie,
I agree, my son’s school run after school gaming clubs, such as the WH40K club, who would love a demo team to visit to show the children something new.
Im using st.marc’s. Think it what they call simple green in the us. I have some plastic and resin in there for 4 months now. The debacle with justin reminded me of them. Will check after im back from holliday what happened to them
My first experience with a GW store was in Cardiff. I was Visiting my husband before we were married. He is a avid Warhammer 40,000 player. Myself I had no clue and wasn’t really into games. It wasn’t until he took me to the GW in Cardiff. I walked in as was amazed…the staff were fantastic. They could spot the newbie – set me up on a demo game where I played the Orcs and proceeded to wipe my husbands army out. It was one of the BEST day’s ever. 1) I beat my husband at something. 2) It really jump started my love for gaming. Now years later I are avid gamer and GW had a huge impact on getting me interested.
It would be great to see the smaller independents do the same. Great show as always and thank you all the laughs and giggles!
Really interesting discussion about stores and recruitment. I can’t see any other companies thinking that the return would be worth the risk or the money – and it would be hard to tell how successful you’d been in the long run. i.e. how many of those who bought starter sets actually built them and went on to buy anything else once the pop-up store had gone. You would need a really good support system – online and possibly ‘community engagement’ people who would stay in touch with clubs and local communities. And saying that, I think some companies do already do this with ‘outriders,’ etc.
Perhaps a way of trialling this however would be to start with conventions and open days. I don’t mean gaming conventions. I’m thinking more along the lines of open days at museums, or community fair days. Things that get lots of people with kids along, and that are set up for outside groups to come and present a stall to people. And where people are not then expecting you to be there next week.
For Paint Stripping I have started to use BioStrip. Coat the Mini and leave for 1 hour.
The paint just falls off and it is not harmful in any way. Far better then detol
I was told about it and was not sure until I tried it
@justin could try putting the floppy men next to the cowgirls with hot pants? If that doesn’t work try leaving then in a tub of salt/sand for a week or to see if the moisture can be pulled out to harden then again.
@warzan the dehumidifier crystals are heat sensitive they stop working the colder it gets if you are going to store anything in a shed store it on pallets and rotate the boxes so the air can be circulated to reduce moisture traps. Lofts will be the same because the insulation is on the floor not the roof plus most roofs are cold because of the ventilation gaps in the eves to dry the loft.
Cowgirls in hot pants . . . oh yes. To hell with notions of “historical” or pragmatic accuracy, or whether cowgirls would really wear them. They didn’t ride around on element-X powered motorbikes either — that what makes these settings so awesome!
P.S. you can get water resistant M D F probably pink like the plasterboard & chipboard versions.
So What going on with “On the Table”? Really missing those episodes.
I hear what these @warzan , @lloyd , and @justin are saying about over-experienced gamers lurking around gaming clubs. I’m a 30-year gamer and recently walked into a gaming club pretty close to us . . . and yeah. I was aggressively approached about joining about three D&D RPGs and CCGs even though I’d just told all these people . . . I don’t play D&D or CCGs. They still kept coming at me with this stuff. Oh yeah, then there was “the Gamer Smell.” 🙂
Don’t get me wrong, I go to this club regularly now, found other people there, support the club, and have great fun and games. The people who actually run the store are awesome. But at first glance, and first impression, the room full of “veteran gamers” can be a little off-putting . . . even to a veteran gamer. 😐
The demise of GW would not mean the demise of the hobby.
That is like saying the demise of the Imperium would mean the demise of all humanity.
Humanity will survive, evolve and continue.
Just as IF GW were to cease to exist, the hobby would continue. I think it would actually flourish as people look at alternative’s (and the old rule books will not suddenly stop being readable.)
The fact that GW is both producer, wholesaler, and retailer, if anything has had a retrograde affect on the industry in general, which is only now partly being alleviated as technology in miniature creation, and crowd funding for financing is slowly opening up options that were difficult to address before hand.
With storage, I have half of a room (my home office) that is filled with Hobby stuff.
My wife just ignores the room and tries not to think about it.
I am looking at cases with bought, or made out of pine, to store things long term.
I would only store in an outdoor “shed” as a last resort, unless it is a very good shed.
But I do disagree that roleplayers do not have things to store.
A lot of roleplayers, have a large collection of miniatures, and books, and tend to buy a lot of things that are “collectible” more then just a mass of items.
A friend who has the largest collection of Star Wars miniatures, uses them for roleplaying, and NOT for wargaming at all.
But me and a friend are looking at making more “storage” box’s from pine to store things, and stack them ontop of each other.
Flaccid minis are a common problem, Justin. It affects all sorts of gamers, nothing to be ashamed of. 😀
I´m not to supreised that the dettol softend Justins little soldier 🙂
With resin you use a hardener and the dettol most probably solved it. The first three days nothing happend because the mini was protected by the paint. When the paint went off the hardener got disolved. What would interest me is: do the minis fall into pieces after a while?
@justin keep us up to date in the next weekenders, please. If the minis survive this, Battlefoam and others are out of buisness soon, LOL.
Hello guys,
if you are looking for 3D dungeon you should take a look at this:
http://www.thomarillion.de/index.php?seite=katalog&unterseite=dunkelstadt&modell=&pos=&sprache=gb_
http://www.thomarillion.de/index.php?seite=dsbeispiele&unterseite=&modell=&pos=&sprache=gb_
It´s a bit pricy, but awesome stuff. It includes trapdoors and real secret passages, what means parts of the walls can be moved.
It´s made out of the same foam material that is used by microartstudios.
@warzan – Interesting hearing you talk about this. I’ve got a different take on GW’s business practises. Having some stores is no doubt useful, but they’ve just over invested in a strategy that wasn’t working so well in many cases. Having some stores is no doubt beneficial, but the BEST thing to do is make sure there’s a product that independents can demo and sell that directly ramp into your full sized games.
Think about the contents of the dark vengeance boxed set, and then think about what you need to buy to get some decent games running with that. Aside from in their stores, GW doesn’t support such small battles. The starter scenarios in the DV box, are frankly ludicrously bad.
I’m not going to say that GW should bring back specialist games, but they need to codify some alternative versions of the game. If you want to get people into 40k, then make the specialist games you do put out, optimised introductions to a simplified version of the rules. Space Hulk is actually a really good example:
Make a boxed set with terminators vs nids, and make it a cut down zone mortalis rule set. Introduce some guidance back into competitive play, and run events where you build a ZM force, and then a full army including the ZM force, and improve prize support for tournaments if they run a ZM tournament at the same time.
Necromunda/BFG/Inquisitor/gorkamorka were inefficient ways of introducing players to 40k. They used alternative models, they weren’t rule compatible (not really, necromunda of course is closest). They were short term ways of getting more money out of existing players, but imagine if those model ranges didn’t exist, but that energy had gone into campaign packs and new minis for 40k and WHF.
Allow customers to buy into the hobby with a cheap, boxed set game they can play as a board game. Entice them into collecting, by designing armies to actually function properly around those core units with some cheap troop sets bolted on (why are they trying to make a big profit of tactical marines and space marine force commanders??), and get them to scale up into a “full sized” army.
With any marketing channel, it will work well at a small scale, but that doesn’t mean that “more is always better”. GW have huge liabilities for the running of their stores. Going to single man stores, is bonkers too. It certainly shouldn’t be as widespread as it is. That alone tells you that this model isn’t paying the dividends it needs to.
I can understand “1manning” the marginal stores, before shutting them down. But rolling it out as standard is a strange decision.
I recall a few years ago someone here in Australia doing something very similar to Warrens kiosk idea with Mantic products. They setup in local shopping centres and moved around to various locations in their town. Now I think at the time it was only Kings of War products that were available so I don’t know how successful it ended up being but I did think it was a cool way to drum up interest in the game.
Here we go found it linked on Mantics Blog 😀
http://manticblog.com/2011/11/03/mantic-lands-in-a-shopping-centre-near-you/
Cracking show as always gents
The storage thing depends on your climate, basically. If you live in California or Arizona, you can get away with unheated storage.
Just about everywhere else you’ll need to plan for moisture.
You will basically need to store your stuff in airtight containers with desiccants to preserve them. Otherwise they will suck in moisture from the air.
As for the other thing… I fully agree that a bookstore selling three books is much much better than a bookstore that drowns the prospective reader in choices.
I wonder why more bookstores haven’t adopted that business model…
Bookstore / Game Store is not really the same thing though is it?
For new comers you have to consider that a game (FoW, WH40K, Infinity) is their hobby (not the whole hobby that comes later on in their lifecycle)
Each of these games has hundreds of products, so in reality each game should be considered your bookstore (although that’s not a great comparison either)
Well, it’s more like a bookstore that only has books from Stephen King, Charlene Harris and Ernest Hemingway. Nothing wrong with them, but it’s quite narrow selection and one of them hasn’t written anything new in quite a while.
Let’s try this out.
A man walks into a GW store. A helpful attendant greets him:
“Good day sir, may I interest you in a game?”
“Why yes, I’ve been hearing good things about this so-called miniatures gaming and I’m looking to get into it. Used tp build model airplanes when I was a wee lad.”
“Very good sir, are you interested in fantasy or science fiction?”
“I’m a big sci-fi fan. I love Star Wars! Do you have anything like that?”
“Errr, no sir. We have this Warh…”
“Well, I like Star Trek too. Do you have a game like that?”
“Err, no sir.”
“Well, I’m really flexible about this. I just love starships. Do you have a game with starships?”
“Err, we used to but since it’s discontinued I’m not allowed to talk about it… maybe we could interest you in a game about a movie?”
“Why yes, I’m a big Mel Gibson fan! I’ll play anything he was in. Like the film Patriot, do you have anything like that?”
“Err, no…”
“He was in a western too, do you have something with cowboys and indians?”
“Err… no.”
“He was in that Vietnam movie too. That would be really interesting to game, Do you have that?”
“Err, no. Do you have another favorite actor?”
“Why yes, I like Russel Crowe too! He was in Master & Commander. Those sailing ships were really cool. Do you have anything like that?”
“Well, we used to but since it’s discontinued we are not allowed to talk about it…”
“Gladiator, now that was a smashing movie. Do you have anything with Romans in it?”
“Err… no. Sir, is there anything else you like?”
“Glad you asked! I have these games on my iPad, I think they are smashing fun and I’d really like to play a tabletop version of them. They are called SPACE HULK and WARHAMMER QUEST! Do you have them?”
“Err….”
lol
Yup it could go that way too. 😉
I’m not sure that the whole roleplayers nit using miniatures is entirely true. The group I game with regularly uses miniatures for combats. All our maps are drawn on a grid and we use either miniatures or counters – the preference being miniatures for baddies and goodies. The biggest issue we face is the diversity of games we play means there isn’t huge scope for miniatures re-use
Great episode. Just one remark. Hot pants wearing cowgirl miniatures remind me of an ongoing sexism in the game industry. There’s a similar debate in the computer game industry. The question is, why are women most of the time dressed half naked or with unrealistic huge breasts and so on. For DUST there is a kit called volunteers which is nothing more than three naked women cleaning something. I don’t know if this is necessary to enjoy a game. At least it will not support woman getting into the wargaming. Maybe something to think about.
I’m not sure about the stores as a recruiting mechanism, more now as I am not sure how influential a brick and mortar store is. I was at the mall a couple of weekends ago returning a cable box, the only reason I go to the mall anymore, and it was completely dead in the middle of a Saturday afternoon. Now I understand my experience is not an unbiased poll, and also subjective, but the point is that more and more shopping is going online and away from the malls.
While I do not totally discount the store concept, I think the money can be better spent on other endeavors.
1. A strong social commitment across platforms. YouTube, Facebook, and any other platform which has the “kids” interest. It is something we as a college struggle with, how to reach our student population. Social media is the way they want to communicate.
2. Good local community managers. Paizo has done this with Pathfinder society which has taken a large part of an existing community (the old RPGA community) and grown it. Again subjective and non scientific poll of me at GenCon, first the Pathfinder Society has taken over the old RPGA room for the past two years at least, and Paizo’s booth was more frequented than Wizards D&D booth. Likely the second is that it had more to sell, but this year was the release of D&D 5th edition. This is the situation GW could find themselves in soon, where an upstart has taken a large part of their market share and left them playing catchup, the whole 4th Edition debacle and the rise of Pathfinder.
3. Or 2.5 a strong store support program. I just pointed out Wizards mistake with D&D, let me point out what I think is a large success, the Wizards Play Program. Especially Friday Night Magic (they have tried to do this with D&D with limited success) where they get people into the FLGSs to play a rather standard set of Magic without having to worry about being outclassed by veteran players and their “super” decks. I am not sure if a miniatures company could get away with it, but FFG has done prerelease games for X-Wing and worked with FLGSs on it.
4. Finally, there needs to be some sort of online try system. I think the Warmachine video game is a great idea. It needs to be followed up by advertising the table top product and how to get into it via points 1, 2, and 3. I think pulling kids down from video games instead of up from the store is a far better strategy.
Nice show guys.
If you’re still looking for a ruleset for dungeon crawling, you could try ‘dungeon crawl’ from ‘smackwell’. It’s only 15 US dollars and you get everything you need in PDF. The guy from smackwell is really nice and doing it all by himself (no publisher,…)
Iron ring games did a KS ,where they put together cast stuff of hirst arts, called labyrinths.
Good to know I’m not the only “seasonal” gamer 🙂 I definitely get into the feel of dungeon crawlers, and the fantasy genre as a whole, in the colder winter months. Quaffing tankards of ale by the fire in a rustic low-ceiling pub with rain lashing against the windows definitely creates that fantasy atmosphere.
Having just received my Battlesystems sci fi Kickstarter stuff (again heard sbout on BOW article originally , they are planning a new fantasy themed Kickstarter that looks great and provides some cool looking even multi height dungeon building opportunities and you don’t have to paint it either, the textures already look fantastic. Well worth a look if you are considering so e dungeon delving activities.
The idea of having a kiosk store in a mall is a good idea. Especially when you add the idea that has been discussed as to which is the best starter set. If you are going to promote the product you must have a takeaway and not just brochure of some type. Have the starter sets ready for sale, the two player types will be best. Now you are selling a family activity that can be expanded upon once they are hooked.
This will keep the amount of skus to a minimum while promoting the industry and products that can be expanded.
This would be easy to set up by hawk games for drop ship commander or even the new bolt action b-day set.
Once the primary sale is made you can then work on increasing the size of the sale and getting add-on sales. This could be done with quality expansion sets or an ability to pick items to be shipped. They then walk away with something tangible in their hands.
With regard to rpgs and scenery, I do and don’t.
So for World of Darkness games I don’t use minis. Ever.
For Iron Kingdoms, I will use minis and scenery for “set pieces” because IKRPG is not just a dungeon crawl. It’s like a WoD rpg, but with a good excuse to use minis for showcase combat scenes.
Now depending on prep time, sometimes I use a dry wipe mat, or use my wargaming terrain and terraclips. http://darkerdaysradio.blogspot.de/2013/09/actual-play-iron-kingdoms-adamantine.html
Lots of interesting things talked about in this episode.
I think gaming differs a lot from country to country, region to region. It really seems like the UK (and maybe Europe at large) has a larger focus on the gaming clubs. There are meetup groups here (my small area of Western Canada), but not so much in the way of regular clubs. Perhaps even what I consider to be a club is false, but when I hear the term ‘gaming club’ I think of a group that meets regularly and plays the same or a few games exclusively.
My city is well set up in terms of game stores. I can think of at least five different ones (in addition to a GW shop), and they all have some sort of dedicated gaming space or tables. To my knowledge, they also all have regular (monthly or weekly) event schedules. Essentially the store IS the club, but the players’ attendance is determined more by what you play than anything else.
The one thing that I feel all of my local shops suffer from is that they don’t really feel all that welcoming to the new-comer. It’s often hard to tell who is staff and who isn’t. On busy days they’re packed full of people and gamer stink. I’m more likely than not to avoid the shops on the big event days. Getting folks into things might be easier by providing them less choice, (I got started by a simply curious stop in a GW shop), but easier doesn’t mean better.
As a hobby, board or miniature gaming takes a LOT of dedication. You have to search out a place to buy or play your games. You have to find a game or games that you are interested in. You have to find people to play those games with, or do demos to build up a community. Games are expensive, they take time. It really isn’t for the shy or faint of heart.
Storage…ugh don’t get me started. I play board games and have lots of different periods of miniatures. It’s a mess and often feels like I’m drowning.
Couldn’t disagree with you more, many people want to CASUALLY play a dungeon crawler game, often with people who’ve never touched a GW miniature in their lives.
Acetone free nail polish remover for resin. only needs a few minutes!