The Weekender XLBS: GW Annual Report & Sons of Anarchy Revealed!
August 3, 2014 by warzan
For some website features, you will need a FREE account and for some others, you will need to join the Cult of Games.
Or if you have already joined the Cult of Games Log in now
What difference will having a FREE account make?
Setting up a Free account with OnTableTop unlocks a load of additional features and content (see below). You can then get involved with our Tabletop Gaming community, we are very helpful and keen to hear what you have to say. So Join Us Now!
Free Account Includes
- Creating your own project blogs.
- Rating and reviewing games using our innovative system.
- Commenting and ability to upvote.
- Posting in the forums.
- Unlocking of Achivments and collectin hobby xp
- Ability to add places like clubs and stores to our gaming database.
- Follow games, recommend games, use wishlist and mark what games you own.
- You will be able to add friends to your account.
What's the Cult of Games?
Once you have made a free account you can support the community by joing the Cult of Games. Joining the Cult allows you to use even more parts of the site and access to extra content. Check out some of the extra features below.
Cult of Games Membership Includes
- Reduced ads, for a better browsing experience (feature can be turned on or off in your profile).
- Access to The Cult of Games XLBS Sunday Show.
- Extra hobby videos about painting, terrain building etc.
- Exclusive interviews with the best game designers etc.
- Behind the scenes studio VLogs.
- Access to our live stream archives.
- Early access to our event tickets.
- Access to the CoG Greenroom.
- Access to the CoG Chamber of Commerce.
- Access the CoG Bazarr Trading Forum.
- Create and Edit Records for Games, Companies and Professionals.
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Hopppy Someday!!!!
Ah the weekend. I too made a silver foil hat you can never be too careful
Happy Sunday
GW make more money if they sell two Murderfangs direct than if they sell three through independent retailers. As their margins get tighter, it makes sense for them to direct as many sales as possible straight to them, even if it mean the overall sales drop slightly. It wouldn’t surprise me if we see the day soon that new armies are only available via GW on release, and filter out from there.
That’s true of course, but that has always been the case, I believe the reason it is more imperative for them now, is the increased competition in the market place. Lets be honest there are definitely some games that can compete with 40K now.
It’d be very interesting to know if GW now fear competition from other games. I do agree that keeping people out of independent stores has that benefit. I do also think that GW used to see the independent stores as filling in the gaps that their retail chain couldn’t get to, but now they see the website doing that. They also are pushing to minimise costs and maximise revenue as much as possible. Part of that means pushing customers to direct channels. For the independents it means getting them to buy as much product as possible through their T&Cs, which I’m assuming is what was meant by GW causing problems for the guy who owned the store in the bookshop.
Going on a slight tangent, the conversation has been heavily on the effect of KS on LGSs, but games that come from that route don’t constitute a big percentage of LGS sales. 40K does, and GW are the ones making it hard for them to operate.
I would say that some of the KS games do constitute a significant percentage of LGS sales, but only after their launch. During the 2008 downturn, we had a major shakeup in our LGSes in my town. Two of the largest and best-known stores closed (and several more in the surrounding cities within 50 miles did as well), and shortly after (during the uptick that started the current industry growth cycle in 2010) a bunch of new stores opened up to take their place.
One of these new stores, which is one of the more successful ones currently, refuses to sell GW product and has since they opened. They don’t have anything against the games (in fact, the owner plays 40k). They just looked at the contract terms for dealing with GW and said, “No, thanks.” They get better margins stocking PP, Mantic, FFG etc.. Dreadball has become a noticeable part of their business, with a weekly league and permanent shelf space. It’s not the bulk of their sales (Magic, PP and FFG are), but it makes a dent.
The point being, Kickstarter is a way to create more competition amongst manufacturers in the hobby games industry. The initial launch may not help retailers, but the increased diversity of the market afterward does. The more real competition there is, the less dependent on any one company (GW or otherwise) stores can be. By creating that diversity, and by growing the customer base through the promotional powerhouse that Kickstarter is right now, these new games are creating a healthier marketplace for independents to thrive in, one that is not totally dominated by any single manufacturer.
So yeah, for the duration of a kickstarter campaign, it arguably takes sales out of the retailer’s pocket, but once the product is on shelves and has some hype behind it, it puts it right back.
@mpopke
“So yeah, for the duration of a kickstarter campaign, it arguably takes sales out of the retailer’s pocket, but once the product is on shelves and has some hype behind it, it puts it right back.”
This may be debatable. Two of my friends, both own competing LGSes, have both ‘been on record’ as having several KS backed products on shelves doing nothing but gathering dust.
The fundamental problem being, was the kickstarter enough to kickstart momentum, or was the entire consumer base for the product fulfilled by those who chose to kickstart it in the first place.
Obviously this is anecdotal, but we now have 3 extremely well stocked (both in number of players and variety of games) gaming stores/centers within 15 minutes of my area, and kickstarted games, both wargames and board games, make up an extremely small percentage of those being played. GW Games, X-Wing and the expected crop of BGG recommended Euro games still get the majority mindshare.
I don’t think KS is quite the threat to retail that it’s cracked up to be, though I don’t doubt some products don’t follow through with retail sales and can burn an LGS who stocks them. Then again, my LGS got burned stocking Infinity and wound up selling almost all their stock at a massive discount.
All of that said, my point was more that I think GW and their T&C’s are more of a threat to LGSs than KS.
Yeah, obviously some kickstarted products are never going to be successful beyond the initial drive. The difference between those and normally funded projects is that they get to store shelves at all, whereas normally funded projects that aren’t successful just tend to never get made.
I’m curious to see if X-Wing can maintain the momentum it has built. It’s a huge seller right now, and a lot of store owners are happy to stock it. But how long can they keep it up? At what point does that well run dry? I think Warmahordes has the capability to support a community of players in the long term (because they already have). Will X-Wing have the same longevity, or will it fizzle out like Wings of War and DUST effectively did? (Yes, I know Battlefront is trying to get DUST back up and running, but they have to basically resurrect it to do so, and it was FFG who let it fade in the first place.)
Bottom line: Stocking products that don’t sell isn’t a new problem that only effects Kickstarter products, and there are successful kickstarter products that sell well after the kickstarter is over (the Zombicide stuff has sold really well post-kickstarter, and so has most of Mantic’s product line). I would guess that the ratio of successful KS products is the same as successful non-KS products only that we never see the vast majority of the failed non-KS products (and neither do retailers).
Speaking of competition, Rick Priestley is currently working on his Sci-Fi game Gates of Antares, and it’s looking very promising indeed (having a read through the alpha ver. right now).
And if I’m not totally wrong, Warlord is also working on a fantasy version based of the Hail Cesar rules.
That could be two games in direct competition with GWs two behemoths.
Where can I find info the the game Warlord is working on? That sounds interesting.
Shoot, I was trying to give you a thumbs up on your comment (because I too want to see a fantasy Hail Caesar), but my mouse found the edge of the mat unexpectedly, and I accidentally hit the thumbs down. Apologies, and could someone at BoW maybe fix that for me?
I heard it a couple of episodes back on the Meeples&Miniatures podcast, or I at least I thought I heard it on the M&M podcast. But now I can’t find that damn episode again, so it could be an entirely different podcast I heard it on.
Any who, during an interview the guy being interviewed says (I guess unintentionally) that some lads at his local club are play testing a fantasy version of Hail Ceasar from Warlord. And from what I understood, this was no home brewed rules they where playing around with.
While we’re on the subject of fantasy systems, I’ll again take the opportunity to point out that you can currently get Jake Thornton’s fantastic God of Battles for just £12.50.
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/gob/god-battle/
From June 2013 for 40K GW have released Eldar, Iyanden, Farsight Enclaves, Apocalypse, Black Legion, Space Marines, Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle), Sentinels of Terra, Inquisition, Clan Raukaan, Tyranids, Legion of the Damned, Imperial Knights, Crimson Slaughter, Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers), Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), 7th ed and Orks.
From June 2013 for WFB they have released Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Dwarfs (8 years waiting) and Wood Elves (9 years waiting).
That’s a lot of new/revised content within 12 months. Many can argue with me but IMHO the high prices are causing the problems. They do not affect me in example because I have a lot of minis for my armies but a new player will have problems getting into this hobby/way of life/etc. I remember a time when an IG battleforce consisting from 25 Guardsmen, 3 HWT and a Leman Russ cost 50 pounds (Catachan version had 2 Sentinels instead of the tank). Now you shouldn’t start this ‘adventure’ if don’t have a good salary or rich parents and that’s sad.
But of course I maybe wrong and what do I know 😛
“Eldar, Iyanden, Farsight Enclaves, Apocalypse, Black Legion, Space Marines, Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle), Sentinels of Terra, Inquisition, Clan Raukaan, Tyranids, Legion of the Damned, Imperial Knights, Crimson Slaughter, Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers), Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), 7th ed”
I highly doubt they can do this every year.
Something has to change. And from my own knowledge of business – same only smaller – well that’s just not the way to go…
They have worked hard to reduce their overheads over the last few years but with all these major releases they still haven’t managed to increase their turnover.
Instead they seem to work hard at reducing the turnover even more. A sale is a sale after all, It doesn’t matter who makes it for them. Even the profit margin on an independent sale v GW direct sale is debatable, GW don’t have to pay for the independent store’s overheads and they don’t have to sit on the unsold stock.( I’m presuming they don’t put stock into the indy stores on consignment).
As for the internet sales I see they have shown no sign of picking up the slack and remain at a steady 13% of overall sales.
I agree with you @thrawn, I think price has got a lot to do with it. Some of the prices are just ridiculous – for example, a single plastic SM Libby for £18, with limited to zero options for conversions / posability is just insane.
I’ll show my age a bit here, but when I first got started on this long journey I bought a metal SM tac squad for £10. Now of course the comments around inflation etc etc come into play, but that same squad has now been replaced with a plastic one, and the price has spiralled to £25 – why? As Justin said, what used to be a pocket money hobby is out of reach now for most kids.
By contrast I was at the Warlord open day last weekend and picked up a new army for Bolt Action – my wife’s eyes rolled with another “here we go, how much have you spent this time?!” look until one of the sales guys pointed out how much cheaper it was compared to GW. A full-metal, 600pt army for less than the price of a Land Raider….. apparently she thinks I should stick to WW2 gaming now 😉
The new aggressive marketing strategy of White Dwarf is another issue – no longer available in newsagents, you have to go to a GW store or an independent stockist. My local “stockist” only carries half the paint range and the copies of WD are a good month old at least, so I have to travel into my nearest GW (15 miles away), park at ridiculous costs, to then pick up my copy. My £2.40’s worth of sales pamphlet now costs me nearly £10 a week to pick up, so why would I want to go and get it now? £40 a month for 4 magazines? No thanks, that’s nearly another Bolt Action army 🙂
Excellent points. They have pushed their price points beyond what the market will bear and sales are reflecting this fact. They have cut input costs to the bone. The only place to go from here is price reductions to drive higher sales. They should have never gone into the retail side of the business. Let independents bear the costs of running brick and mortar and simply supply them……much cheaper and more efficient. Cheers!
All Hail the mighty THRUST !
I have a copy of ‘battle of five armies’ that GW brought some years ago, may be they may reissue it.
Another good show, but please stop interrupting mike.
The only downside to the weekender is that I have to wait another week for the next one.
Superb show once again. Looking forward to seeing more of Killian and Mike.
The Silmarrillion is actually my favorite of Tolkien’s “big 3” works, as it reads like a series of short stories or myths & legends. I always liked how it runs through the various ages of the world, and how the Third Age that The Hobbit & Lord of The Rings mark the end of is so different from the ages that came before- in terms of the power of those involved and the geography of the world.
You get the story of Beren & Luthien that Aragorn mentions in Fellowship, and has such parallels to his & Arwens relationship. There is the tragedy of the House of Hurin. We see the story of Earendil the Mariner, father to Elrond whose pendant Galadriel gifts to Frodo. And the fall Melkor, who becomes Morgorth, once of the Ainur/Valar (Middle-Earth’s gods) but wriven with jealousy & arrogance, and the spirits who fall with him – such as the Maiar who will become Sauron. Also – an ARMY of Balrogs and much, much more awesomeness that I really don’t want to spoil. All I’ll say is that it adds a texture and depth to the world that I really enjoy 🙂
i think that the silmarrillion is a MUST read! It, for me, really brought the universe alive. but it’s one hell of a tough read, i never read the book myself i listen to the whole thing on audio book, this is what i would recommend to warren or anyone wanting to read it. i tried many years ago to read it but it was such a hard read i gave up but when i found the audio version, it made so much more sense and it is beautiful read as well, i can’t remember who reads it, but all i know is that i couldn’t stop listening once i started.
the one thing that really strikes me about Tolkien is how big of a universe that he created on his own, the size and depth is truly incredible, even more so since he started creating it such a long time ago while in the trenches in europe!
When I first picked up the Silmarillion (when I was about 12, or maybe a couple of years older), I was put off by the complexity of the first few pages. But when I went back to it a few years ago, I really enjoyed it.
It’s worth pointing out that it doesn’t go on like the first few pages for the whole time. You can read it in chunks. Chapters describe different parts of the mythology and the history. You don’t need to understand every word or name on your first read through. Which isn’t to say you have to read it several times to get it, just that you can go back and re-read the bits that most interest you in light of other chapters you read.
Also, ref Sons of Anarchy: A friend showed me an interesting article that got into how the origin of the show was to tell an updated version of Hamlet, and if you look at the shows initial setup that holds up – you have king dead in murky circumstances, whose closest friend/ brother has married his queen, claimed his thrown and adopted his son….
That is true though Kurt Sutter has been keen not to overplay it. It was an element that went into the story but one of many.
Boycott Workshop. They started the industry, became way ahead of their time but from that success another industry has started. One where gamers have a multitude of games and systems to play all under one roof. Gone are the days where one war game was enough. If Workshop don’t want to be a part of the very industry they created that’s their fault. I for one would love to see them open up to the now full scale of the hobby, but I might swell ask for it to rain Titans…
Also in my experience the success of an independent store is by creating a chargeable hub for gamers to meet and play while concentrating on selling modelling supplies and universal terrain. You can’t make a profit by just pushing product anymore.
I think companies don’t start anything, people do, and as Apple decadence after Steve Jobs left, in a similar way (apparently they like to be compared with Apple) all the great creative minds behind GW golden age are gone (with the exception of JJ and JB), i’m not surprised people are looking more and more towards Warlord Games (WG eheh….)
I remember the days when a local game shop could stay open just by selling Pokemon cards……..
Just listened to ‘Metal Christmas ‘. Way to go Warren. Will now be on my Christmas play list.
Any chance of the other songs still being around ?
I will have to try finding them lol
hey Warren I don’t know if anyone else has mentioned but GW used to have the Warhammer Record Label, so it wasn’t inspired by, they actually had several metal/rock bands like Wraith, UFO, Bolt Thrower. Album sleeves where a lot of old GW artwork. With issue 50 of WD there was a flexi disc of “Blood for the Blood God” I have a copy of it if I can find it you really need to hear it at some stage.
Have a GW cd some where, will have to dig it out.
A good way to ease yourself into the Silmarrillion is to read “The Children of Hurin”. It’s basically one of the most readable and best narratives in the Silmarrillion heavily edited by Christopher Tolkien to make it more accessible.
A Crustcore Thrash band from Sunderland called Trinity Shot have a song about you guys called Beasts of War , they are recording an album (their 2nd or 3rd I think) and it’s all inspired by Warmachine , Horus Heresy , Infinity etc .
I’ve been doing some work for them and in rehearsal they played it , I’ll try and get them to send you a copy .
Some metal pedantry for you.
The EP given away with White Dwarf was from Nottingham band Sabbat, who generally had nowt to do with GW (at least musically).
Bolt Thrower, from Birmingham, did at least two albums with WH40k content. Realm of Chaos (IIRC their 2nd album) had GW’s blessing and featured the artwork from Rogue Trader. The local GW was even selling stuff at one of their gigs (Grindcrusher tour, Manchester, 1989, yes I go back that far).
\m/ Here endeth today’s lesson from metal-in-the-olden-days. \m/
love it 😉
Jo Bench ,yum yum .
Bolt Thrower’s “Realm of Chaos” album is on iTunes and is pretty epic. Thought it was a little pricey at $9.99 (especially after over 20 years), but worth it. 🙂
I think I paid about £6.50 for it, which was the going rate in 1989
I never liked playing the games the majority favoured. When I started with miniatures it was Battlefleet Gothic because of greater tactical depth. GW first increased prices more and more without added value and then killed the game outright. I never 40k because I feel it’s too static and will go play Infinity now as it is faster paced and delivers a far better price/value ratio.
Just signed up for Backstage and enjoy it! 🙂
Same here =)
I have all the early bolt thrower stuff and love it all. The realms of chaos cds are a very good listen imo. They are extremely gw game oriented but i still enjoy the music even though i no longer enjoy any of the big gw games.
Good show, I think moving forward GW’s infrastructure costs will be what really hurts them. The stores add huge overheads, and with everything one man now, they don’t have any added value for customers, you cant play games at them, for people like me who get one day a week to go to shops during the day, a Tuesday, my local G is actually shut so I couldn’t shop there if I wanted to, and now the majority are away from the main footfall areas they don’t even have that ‘passing traffic’ appeal. I used to get the value as a recruitment center, right in big shopping centers and full of people having fun playing a game. Now they are all tucked away in the dingier bits of town with one bloke doing the hard sell.
I cant see that as a positive change long term.
That kind of show was one of the reasons why I joined Backstage recently. Less forced and maybe therefore more balanced than what a ‘public’ discussion could achieve. So, thanks for that and in particular your discussion and analysis on developments at GW. It’s sad to see them go down that route, but actually not that surprising given their business decisions during (at least) the last decade or so. There’s always been doom and gloom about it, if never that serious and well-grounded than in these days.
I also wouldn’t mind Killian to appear more often here on BoW. If not for his knowledge of Tolkien. 😉 IIRC the Silmarillion is kind of an afterthought, a collection of notes Tolkien took while writing The Hobbit and LotR and then put into a narrative. Peter Jackson wasn’t allowed to use it other than in short reference (which is, as such, already in the Hobbit/LotR books), so he had to rely on the LotR appendices for transition between both movie series.
Apart from that, an emphasis on Infinity (more video AAR!) would be greatly appreciated, for example. And if Killian is in for that – please go for it!
Thanks for a great Sunday. 🙂
I think the lwck of profit for GW is down to GW having little goodwill within the gaming community and reducing numbers of players tbh. FLGS work hard to keep their customers entertained, so is very important to the community as it is normally set up by community members in the first place. Additionally, companies on Kickstarter are getting exclusive advertising where it matters and are able to create communities in a short amount of time, with little risk. They also have the appearance of a human face which people can relate to. Something GW has not done in years, I used to get WD to find out what wild things Adrian and Gav was up to, until it turned into a soleless catalogue, then I got into the routine of not getting it and it sort of stuck. Now the internet is a big place for such news, WD isnt really necessary imho. I can read 1000’s of battle reports etc without having a bias spin placed on the new army of the month.
All in all, I think GW can be summed up with the aid of Radio Heads song, Just “You do it to yourself” http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TDYtMt5IJpg
So wish it wasnt the case though. 🙁
I was in my only local game store this week buying some gw paint and the lady serving me mentioned how they are going to be discontinuing all the gw stuff.
Now they are not a full hobby store and sell more items like board games and puzzles but they are one of the only stores I know of in a 30km radius that sells gw items so if they don’t think it sells that’s worrying.
Certainly not on the same scale, but the vertical business model is exactly what Henry Ford did for his car company. He went so far as to own the rubber trees to make his tires, housing for his workers, etc. Not sure it is exactly relevant to GW or our hobby…but interesting none the less.
He went so far to own the runner trees and housing for his workers…
You should look into the history of Henry Ford’s little colonies in South America. It ended very badly. People died, mostly because Ford’s philosophy of production and living completely failed in the jungle (kind of like Lysenkoism in the Ukraine). They got out of the rubber business pretty quickly. That’s why Ford’s use Goodyear and Bridgestone now.
It’s not Metal but I do make electro-industrial music, which is like heavy futuristic and mechanical sounding electronic music – but I have been very very very VERY tempted to sample you guys at times 😉 Perhaps I might go for it now the floodgates are open : the title of “Warren’s space marine stomping” comes to mind..
The Silmarillion, for those who liked The Lord of the Rings but found the writing style a little too light and breezy.
As for GW, it seems like people have been talking about them going downhill since the late 90s but they’re still on top of the mountain. I don’t know how they do it, though their latest business moves make it seem like they’re fighting entropy at this point. They don’t seem interested in giving consumers new reasons to love their products, they’re just trying to maintain the stranglehold on the market the company earned decades ago.
Got to agree with Rick Priestley…GW is now becoming a ‘toy’ company and losing its creative roots. I’ve been buying GW products since they were selling Daleks in Broadmarsh Centre, Nottingham and don’t want to think about how much I’ve put in their pockets. But I have not bought a single GW product over the last 6 months. You just get the feeling the companys lost touch with the gamer and is only interested in profit now. Warren’s partially correct with his ‘too much choice’ comment. At one time I would buy every 40k release from Black Library, but the rate at which they churn out material now and prices they ask is just too much. I suppose this is personal taste but I had been a White Dwarf subscriber for years, until the recent change. Splitting the magazine in two just appears to be for more profit. I can understand specialist games not being profit making but it was a reason for me at least to go in and spend money and maybe buy 40k and FB related stuff. And for me, living near to Warhammer World, Bugman’s has become a thermometer for the company. At one time, my wife and myself would call in for lunch, but my wife will not consider it now, due to the quality they are turning out and the feeling the are pushing profits. Its a shame ‘cos i’ve loved the hobby over the years and for me GW needs turning back at least 10 years when they had more love for their licenses. Anyway, for me,the future is bright with the likes of Infinity, Warmachine, Wolsung and Infamy. Sry to ramble on, but just my two penneth.
A lot of talk about GW this time. Don’t get me wrong, I actually enjoyed it, especially because I’m not a economics geek, but what you guys said, was understandable and made sense. Unfortunately it’s not the best for the hobby in general. But I had bad feelings about GW for some time now and your discussion and forecasts just made this feeling stronger.
I think Killian would be an excellent addition to the team (correct me if I’m wrong, but if I understood correctly he was only here for Icestorm-Week). Calm voice, good insights and not afraid of interrupting Warren. Which is quite a feat I imagine. 😛
Not even through the whole XLBS yet and I had to listen to Metal Christmas…
Epic! 😀
More Thrust please! Also can anyone link that Beasts of War metal song? Having trouble finding it…
Just as quip from the sideline: somehow it feels to me that GW is betting n the idea that they can have the same business model as drug dealers: first get people addicted then extort a lot of money. However their games do not actually make you addicted and this even less the more competition appears.
Great show guys and a good conversation about GW. I am new to the hobby, but I’ve long enjoyed many of the Black Library novels. GW even when I was an outsider to the hobby seemed kind of like a bunch of jerks. I don’t see how their business practices are sustainable long term, but what do I know? I don’t own a multi-million dollar business.
Unfortunately the issue with GW and FLGSs is something I feel is larger than just GW but affects the hobby as a whole. The main problem, I feel, is that FLGSs are going against the Internet stores. And they are losing, especially since each generation relying more on the Internet than the previous one.
Now before I start to sound like a Luddite or technophobe the Internet has some rather large benefits for us consumers. Warren talked about the sheet amount of choice out there and how there are all sorts of new games/miniature lines. The Internet really helps give these smaller companies exposure. Were it not for the Net I would have never learned about Infinity, the Avatars of War range, Bushido, Army Painter paints, etc. Spend a little bit of time and you can easily filter what you want to invest your money in and what you don’t.
Now for the FLGS the Internet can cause quite a bit of damage, not just with competitive costs but also being able to carry enough product to please a stable enough consumer base. In the 90’s you just had to carry GW and you were fine. Not so much anymore.
Say I wanted to buy some Infinity so I head over to my FLGS…well, they don’t carry Infinity. Sure, they might order what I want but then I have to wait for it to reach the store, head back over to the store, and pay full retail plus tax. I could do this…or I could head to an Internet store, have the product shipped directly to my house, and pay equal or even less (yes, even after S&H) than I would at a store. Why would I ever do the former, especially for an industry that only gets more expensive?
Now the initial response I get from this is some variation on “creating a community” and “supporting your FLGS”. With the former you don’t necessarily need a store for. My gaming group does not meet at a store, we meet at a friend’s house. Enough tables and terrain has been donated that we can set up to three or four tables if need be. Our group formed via gaming forums and Facebook. We managed to create the community without the store.
As for the latter, that’s a noble goal but it becomes increasing hard to justify the support for a FLGS when the FLGS doesn’t support what you want to play. I understand that carrying a whole new miniature line creates massive overhead and that a store will want a profitable enough base of gamers before wanting to carry it. Totally understandable. Of course you will more often than not end up with a Catch-22 scenario where the community isn’t being formed because the game isn’t being supported and the game won’t be supported because there is no community. Creating that community from scratch takes a lot of time and dedication…not all of us have enough of either of those two things.
I have also noticed that geography plays a rather large factor in the health of a FLGS. The abridged version is that smaller cities/towns tend to have a more robust gaming community than large cities. It sounds strange but makes a bit of sense when you think about it. In smaller areas there isn’t as much to do and a hobby store can stand out as a place to socialize and have fun. Put a hobby store in the middle of a big city and it has to compete with the sheet amount of other things that people can go do. I currently live in the NYC area and have lived in LA, California. In both of these areas gaming stores are few and far between, often with very limited space and small selection. When I lived in Burlington, VT (a small city in Vermont) I frequented a gaming store that was huge in comparison with a good variety of stock and a thriving community.
Ok, so this ended up being longer than I planned when I started. 🙂 Not really trying to do anything besides providing another perspective on the subject. The possible collapse of the FLGS would indeed be sad (it was through a FLGS that I started in the hobby, after all) but I don’t think that would spell the doom of our hobby. Alternatives will be created to fill the space, be it the way my group operates or some other means.
More Killian, more Mike, more personalities in general, is a good thing.
I won’t jump on the GW train, since it’s pretty much all been said. I will simply say: if there is a company whose policies and practices you strongly disapprove of, your strongest voice comes from your wallet.
Gw haven’t innovated in years, ok yes their production levels/quality has led the way but nothing else… it feels like they’ve been treading water for a decade.
Wasn’t there a “Warhammer Records” ?
Isn’t GW’s report related to 2013? Most of the products u refer to were marketed in 2014 right?
Yes, there was a Warhammer records… Going from my memory they had a couple of bands signed. Perhaps more. There was one band called D-Rok who were definitely signed and they released one record – which actually featured Brian May of Queen on guitar, as his nephew was in the band.
The Sabbat flexi disc was called Blood For the Blood God… John Blanche did the art for their album History of a Time to Come.
Bolt Thrower are easily one of my favourite bands. World Eater is easily my favourite song.
SWEEEEET!!!! And that is why being a Backstager pays off!!!
Seriously of all the BOW comps this is the one I was desperate for. Now to go and spend big on Wolsung terrain!
Cheers guys!
On GW’s business practices, something I’ve noticed over the last few years – and it’s along the same lines as GW specific terrain – is the increasing ‘warhammerisation’ of their lines.
The WFB Empire line used to be very heavily influenced in look by real, historical figures. these days everything has a skull or a pennant on it. I presume to minimise the chances of anyone being able to use actual historical miniatures as proxies.
Another line where you can see this is the elves. They are in many ways much less generic these days than they were in the past. Presumably to ensure that non-GW figures will look so out of place among them that no one will use them.
Unfortunately, with both of the examples given above, the lines look for the most part less interesting to me than they used to, even though the quality of the sculpting is excellent.
On GW’s monopolistic practices, I wonder actually if we ought to thank them. I think their strategy has actually helped the growth of alternatives. By ramping up their prices so much, it has made it viable for smaller companies to do business selling models. Either because they can sell figures which are less good than GW at a lesser cost or because they can sell figures of similar quality to GW at a similar cost.
Had GW kept prices reasonable, they might never have opened a gap in the market to be filled by the many competitors we see now. And sure, none of them are anything like as big as GW, but I think we are seeing the balance of power shifting away from GW as new hobbyists are less likely to automatically choose GW over something else now, and as veterans get fed up and try out new games.
Is anyone lese not able to watch this video. All I get is a play symbol that does nothing.
Warren, in a week or two , when I have caught up with my Uni Masters work, I will try and pen a run down on owning a Independent Hobby shop in Australia. It has some parallels with the UK and some with the US, as we tend to share parts of each retail/market culture here. I think I can give you a good run down on the topics as I went from zero to the 2nd highest retail store turnover in 2 years, starting before the GFC and Price shenanigans and through to the restructure following the GFC. I still laugh they tried to find me to run their new local store when the independent business was sold. the highest independent retail store is the online one here in Australia, Military Simulations, and they have been in the market since I was a kid, running a postal catalogue prior to the intra web.
Isolationism=stagnation=death. Nothing more to say with regard to GW. Good show gang, thank you. Welcome back from “holiday” Warren(even though it’s really called vacation 😉
I wonder if it would be possible to opening a games store and stock any other war games other than GW. I know GW has the largest player base but if you did not allow GW stuffed played in your store but everything else was ok maybe you could shape the local market around your store to play and buy different games.
Having space inside stores to play games is expensive but i think GW has overlooked how important they are seeing how they shut down a lot of their battle bunkers. I believe it would give you a more loyal customer base.
Dungeon Crawler 🙂 made my day!
@ Warren
The thing about your flying is this. As a quite frequent flyer it´s like a routine for me. For all the holidayers (does that word exist?) flying is an event. So they have to try everything like the horrible expensive crapfood and the whiskey in plastic cups :-). And of course the airconditioning!!!. No matter how freakin´cold it is, they turn it on full power and when it´s getting cold they don´t turn it of. No, they point it backwards. So you get a nice, frsh breeze inside the plane and the next day everybody is thick.
So for the next time, use a scarf or a turtleneck pullover. It´s woth it.
Nice but you HAVE to read the Hobbit
It is possible to read just parts of the Silmarillion at a time. It’s a bit like the Lotr bible. I personally enjoy the story of Beren and Luthien.
And defnetly keep Killian!
I see what you mean about wanting to paint or replace those biker and prospect playing pieces for Sons of Anarchy. It’s tough trying to envision some “badass bikers” in bright purple. Not to go overboard (I know they’re playing pieces, not miniatures), just spray them black, then add some blue for denim jeans, then some small select color elements to easily tell them apart.
And cute touch with the vague term [ahem] “contraband.” Ohhh, contraband? Is that what they call it these days? 🙂 Smart marketing choice, as was to leave out the other two big businesses SAMCRO is into in the show . . . the kind where you need lots of [ahem] female employees?
Like they say, no real “good guys” in the show, and not a show for the kiddies. But a great show nonetheless. I hope to start watching Season 6 pretty soon.
Very interesting chat on this weeks XLBS.
Have just wasted 11ish minutes listening to Gawds-awful poo that has Romain sampled in it, I can see why he would want to distance himself from associating with it.
Silmarillion IS hard going at first, but it is a book that I have got more out of each time I have read it. I agree @warzan that once you have seen the last film you should read the Hobbit.
Great show guys and awesome as it is to have you back Warren your boys did you proud over the last fortnight. Still missed you though buddy. Really interesting discussion here and as always it carries over seamlessly to the comments – felt like I had a reading list as I downloaded the GW report and dug out my Simarillian copy for some Sunday afternoon reading! Killian has been great on the shows this week, has a super manner and rapport with you guys and I hope you can convince him to appear more regularly soon. Have a good week guys!
Go Hazyboy!
More Killian! Very pleasant guy to listen to.
My five cents on your last weekenders and this one: I like you guys cycling a bit on who has the lead in talking. I found the episode last week… a bit more balanced, maybe? Don’t get me wrong.
I don´t think that put out more products has to mean more sale. The enormous output is for me and I think a lot of other players more frustating than motivating. If you see all the nice new stuff that you would like to have. And if you see the price you have to pay for it. How should anyone afford this? This crazy one-click-purchases for 500 Euro or something. Who spends 500 bucks on one click? That´s insane. It seems to me GW forgot they sell stuff to ordinary people, mostly kids. Where should the money come from.
Specially in these times where the first thing to buy is a smartphone, then clothes and maybe then is space for a hobby.
I don´t even have kids yet and I did quit with GW because I can´t afford it anymore, without missing out to much more important stuff (as a not badly paid engineer). The sad thing is: I have three Armies in the making that will never be finished.
And I know that I would not by GW products for my kids. I´d rather tell them to play Mercs or Infinity, Deadzone.
The profit was primarily extracted from massive cuts in payroll costs. Now they will be looking at “deals”, “specials” and the reduction in price points to drive higher sales volumes. They have no place else to go with their model. They have pushed the price point beyond what the market will bear and prices will have to come down do drive sales.
Looking forward to you guys doing some malifaux stuff 🙂
Very good episode, good insight on the GW topic.
Keep Kilian on the show, he seems to be a brillant addition!
😮 Metal Christmas…the world needs the rest of that epic rock opera!
Iml >o< lml
GW is the cause of companies creating bits for their products. By eliminating their own bits service, they have created a vacuum that needed to be filled. Instead of spending untold amounts on lawyers, they could’ve spent that on keeping the bits service around.
copplestone castings have some bikers in the future wars range alas not on bikes.
wargames foundry also have some gangster style minis in their street violence range