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Weekender XLBS: New Direction Needed for Games Workshop?
August 10, 2014 by lloyd
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Dropzone IS AWESOME!!!!!
I love me my everyday weekender : D
I literally posted an offhand message this morning asking if you guys would consider covering warzone resurrection… I am severely tempted to ask you to draw my name for a give-away now; not by way of a request but just because **Daddy’s on a ROLL!**. Really excited about the new shows, glad I joined the backstage 🙂
Really like the sound of the new Backstage format. Will be good to get the extra details and info.
It will be fascinating to see what happens with GW this year, It feels like a make or break year.
Dropzone looks to be tons of fun. Really want to try it out.
Iv been tempted for so long to play drop zone but lack of cash excellent show again guys 🙂
The apprentiship sounds like a wonderful opportunity for some lucky guy or gal. Oh to be a young man again.
Where are the t shirts at the UK backstager meet ups you tight feckers and I don’t mean you just give out the one you just spent 12 hours travelling in.
Watching you guys makes me wish we could comment in real time – obviously the IP to go with is 40k Legos! Get’em young with a hobby that’s already blindingly expensive; who wants to put together the 300 piece hive tyrant with working jaw?
I personally don’t think they should go IP at all; it’s an expensive proposition and I think you’re more likely to introduce players to the IP than IP fans to the games. I think their best move would be to create a third tier of production models – FW, GW & …. HW?
Picture this, Heresy Workshop, they specialize in much cheaper ranges of armies who hail from the 43rd millennium; where once there was only war, now there is only death – this game is a much dirtier and more dismal world – the tau are gone, long ago fled to the far reaches, the imperium of man has burned up in the fires it used to crush the great tyrannid swarms, chaos has risen and fallen to its own glut, as Orcs and necron content themselves to ruling petty system fiefdoms, the eldar and dark eldar have f****d off somewhere – the space marines are no longer massive chapters but smaller armies of unified knights who wander the universe bring the light of the emperor to forgotten worlds like a dying candle in a seaward breeze. (They’re all still options, their just more like private armies than massive interstellar forces – every general is now a king.
With this range, you can buy a good sized army, something like 100-150 troops, for about 90-100 quid – starter set costs 40 – they aren’t the bright and shiny legions of GW, their detail might be a little less or their material be a little cheaper, and the designs are much more ragged; piece-meal armour for marines, scruffed and well worn guard designs, battered and repaired tau vehicles. It’s not the most ideal, it’s not the prettiest, but for 100£ you’ve got all you need to play not only a game in this new world, but also enough to play a 40k game in a pinch, though your force will look like it’s already been beaten.
You could also take that force alliance chart to new levels; decrease the imbalance between marine chapters and allow marine players to play forces where every unit is from a different chapter; eventually these players might shell out 70€ for 5 salamander devastator marines (assuming current price inflation continues) so they can add them to their 43rd millennium army.
They have a great IP, they need to expand it to something large and affordable. IMO.
Or they could open a frozen banana stand, there’s money in that. 🙂
I think they need to give options for all variety sizes of games. I personally really like smaller games like 40k combat patrol. I can’t always afford 2-3hrs for a game now a days
You’re right that licensing the IP almost never results in better game sales. Look at FASA. They made Battletech incredibly popular with the Mechwarrior series of PC games in the 90s, but none of those people picked up a rulebook and started playing the tabletop game. Same thing happened with Shadowrun. The Genesis and SNES videogames were extremely popular (and still sell well today at vintage stores), but not many of those people started playing pen & paper Shadowrun as a consequence.
Some of that was due to Jordan Weisman essentially abandoning the tabletop market for a while, but I don’t think many people who loved the in-cockpit mech simulator were really going to switch to the map-based record sheet heavy tabletop game.
And as for Warren’s belief that GW could refocus on WFB… They’re more likely to abandon it completely. Look at the specialist games for historic precedent.
Interesting discussion about GW. Do you think, they will go bancrupt sooner or later?
That wont be happening any time soon. And they would sell long before they went bankrupt. Their sales are only down roughly 10% its enough to shock them awake but nothing to damaging. They still made what 12million gbp profit? Thats pretty good when you consider this industry and how small it is.
Get up this morning, get my coffee, get settled down and ready for a follow up to yesterday’s show; I’m all ready to be shown Technicals and Party Buses…
Oh. Not a DZC show…
No worries, it’s still good stuff! The follow up show will appear soon, I’m sure. It’s a testament to BoW that you can get me looking forward to a show about a game that I have no intention of playing!
Now I know I mentioned on facebook that I needed Shaltari for my wife but I’d be quite happy to take one of those starter kits off your hands and give the UCM to my daughter 🙂
I feel one of the biggest issues with GW’s loss of profits is the one topic that you have only recently been talking about, the price.
As the cost constantly increases so does the barrier for potential new players. I got into 40k is the late 90’s and was able to build up a respectable Guard army over the course of a couple of months on a part-time job. Even then it was, relatively speaking, an expensive hobby but it was possible. But wages have been rather stagnant in the past decade or so (in the US anyway) and it costs so much more to get into a GW game. Not just because of the cost per model but also the scope of the game only gets larger.
And it affects the veterans to, the ones that already have large armies. It use to be that even if someone had pretty much everything they would still buy some new releases here and there due to shiny model syndrome. “Yeah I already have a Space Marine Captain, but the new one looks so cool!” Now we seem to have reached a point where those that were previously devoted are more willing to just play with what they already got.
You couple this with a much more competitive market and it becomes clear that, as Sam put it, people are voting with their wallets. For the new game smaller sized games like Infinity or Malifaux are a much safer bet. They tend to be slightly less expensive per model and since you don’t need nearly as much to play it becomes a less risky investment. Imagine you invest into a starter box of Malifaux and maybe a couple of minis and find that you don’t like it. Not too much lost. Now imagine if you invest into a standard sized 40k or Fantasy army and realize you don’t like the game…
Same thing goes for the veterans. They could invest a ton of money into a new army….or they could invest considerable less into that other game that looks cool.
I remember hearing rumblings a little while back of GW possibly making a fantasy skirmish rule set that uses models from Fantasy Battle. Not sure if that is still in the works but I think it could at least alleviate a bit of their financial trouble. It helps break down the barriers the cost of their current games are. Also I’ve noticed skirmish gamers are more likely to start multiple factions so, in the long term, you could make some descent money with the module.
Anyway that’s my two cents (or maybe more like ten cents…I tend to ramble a bit.)
Sorry but, is anyone having buffering issues with this video? Maybe we are putting the server to its limit? 🙁
If all the 40k units were realistic then every space marine chapter would use exactly the same hardware because it’d be the ‘best’ stuff available.
I’m glad Space Wolves are getting themed so heavily. In fact I want MORE mental stuff in the other chapters!
Plus, if you shot king kong in the bonce he’d shrug it off, and while the Thunderwolves are not king kong-sized they are cybernetically-enhanced giant wolves!!! 😀
PLUS… and I know that back in the old days (technical term) cavalry was used heavily because of it’s effect on morale. I saw a documentary where they got this guy to stand and face a cavalry charge as it stormed past him. He cacked his joojoos and only just managed to not run away. Now imagine if that was a unit of giant wolves with 7-foot tall space marines on top! Super terrifying 😀
I’m looking forward to meeting my fellow BoW members at Gen Con. I’ll be the redhead with the Ghost Bear tattoo on his arm!
Another great show. And I agree about Logan Claus. It looks ridiculous. Lol
Love the idea of backstage companion shows to go with the frontstage ones.
Glad to hear about the new Wolfsung SSG show.
Games Workshop seem to be throwing out their IP to any video game developer of later (9 releases between 2014 and 2015), and some of it is absolute gash. I hope that this doesn’t damage the company beyond repair by souring the IP to those new to it.
Whilst I no longer play any of their games, however I feel they fulfil an important role in the industry and that is introducing people to the overall hobby. Which puts the company in a difficult space, how do you provide constant interest to those who remain in the hobby without putting off those new to the hobby.
I personally see a couple of barriers to those new to hobby, firstly the price as Warren said its getting well away from pocket money levels of most kids when combined with all the other things draining their money.
Secondly I wonder if the complexity of the some of the kits outside of the starter products, both in terms of assembly and painting might be putting new people off.
Which is where the balance issue between new and established customers comes in. Established customers love the more complex put all the bits together how you like them, but for a new person who’s primary drive in the hobby may to begin with be actually playing the game, as it was with me and my friends. I could see it being off putting.
I think this shows with some of the big success stories within the miniatures based games of recent years, X-Wing and Star Trek Attack Wing (More popular in the USA). Easy to get into, no complex assembly, recognised IP. So I wonder if this is where Games Workshop is losing its new customers, to the likes of these games.
Sorry make that 16 new video games, forgot to look at the Fantasy side of things. Through interesting that one of the items listed is unknown WFB being made by Creative Assembly, the people behind Total War, could we be getting Total War Warhammer……?
rumours for long enough, creative assembly had it as one of their possible development routes before they started work on Rome 2, at the time there was still a strong modding community that had done a brilliant set of mods and submods based on Medieval 2
at the time, still looked cool but now that it’s ages somewhat, be an awesome way to reinvent the Total War series as well as to shine a new light on the warhammer fantasy world – fingers crossed!!
apologies, *’aged somewhat’
Nothing wrong with more dropzone. It’s awesome
Mmmmm starter sets…
BoW is becoming the Gamer Christmas with all the fantastic prizes you’re handing out. It is testament to the amazing work you are doing and the worldwide popularity of BoW in the gaming community that all the companies making the products we play and collect, all support those efforts even further with a continuous stream of give aways. At the risk of making an ass of myself because I haven’t seen the full XLBS yet, one show I do miss is your crossover with Geek & Sundry on boardgames. Any chance of that, or something similar, returning?
Looking to get my club into dropzone.
Another nice hour spent on the couch listening to you guys rambling 🙂
GW aren’t going to dig their way out with someone else’s IP. Those are always very restrictive and only good for one shot games. Not enough factions to retain long term interest.
Anyway, that drop zone starter box would like mighty fine on my landing pad…
I played Shattered Void at Salute and loved it, it was so quick to learn and easy to play, if this is still correct the rules are going to be a free download and youll be able to download 2d proxies to use. the biggest ship in the game will be corvette size the first ship Warren showed mostly bombers and fighters.
I am in complete agreement with GW needing a new IP. I stopped buying their products after I preordered Dark Vengeance, and before that, I hadn’t bought anything for about 2 years. I was shocked when I came back to it to see the prices. (Saying that though, the other day I found a plastic demon prince and the new 10 man space marine tac squad, still in shrink wrap in a charity shop, £5 all together. Score.)
Their prices are horrifying, I find it a pay off thing, its a large amount of money for something you won’t have painted for a long time if you are busy (for example, a student say) and then once it is painted, providing you have the add on purchases (codecises and rule books, scenery etc) you need to find people willing to play. In my area, thats a big task.
I would love to see necromunda and mordhiem back but it probably isn’t a viable option.
To get my hobby fix these days (due to time and money constraints I guess) I mainly play Call of Cthulhu RPG. I use the free rules PDF and free supplements from various places, I can even get the misses involved with that, and the pay off is easily achieved. I don’t know of any other way to get fun out of hobbying in such a tight economy (atleast for me) at the moment. Pocket money really doesn’t get you anywhere.
i so wish i lived in NI 🙁 great show guys!
i would love to see specialist games come back and be better supported in the stores. with how plastics are working for GW they could re-release all the specialist games with plastic minis and everyone would be happy:) imagine plastic necromunda crews, or all plastic BGF fleets……
absolutely! one of the greatest slip ups GW has made in the last decade (if you ask me) was to neglect the Specialist Games
A return to Warhammer Quest a decade ago could have done a lot to draw young blood into the hobby, as could Space Hulk (remember when I first got into it, loads of people my age at school loved the fluff, loved the mini’s but balked at the price even then) – got a particular hero? Great. He/she happens to have a whole bunch of friends who he/she likes to go out cracking skulls with, and some of his/her pals have got cannons, helicopters, trolls etc etc
Also would have loved to have seen more integration between 40k and BFG when they did the 13th Black Crusade campaign all those years ago, such a wasted opportunity to get people into Necromunda or BFG
None of the specialist games make enough money or bring enough people to the main lines to make them viable. Most of them just generated a load of dead stock. Warren is right, GW need a line that will shift large numbers of minis. Anything else would be a waste of time and money.
Happy Sunday! Fun stuff and that space game looks very interesting!
Maybe it’s because you’ve just done the DZC weekender, but I’d love to see 30k in Epic scale. The massed infantry, titans etc. could be amazing.
I think you were correct, the problem with the hobby in general now is choice…over the last few years we have been spoilt with Mantic, Spartan, Hawk, Fantasy Flight etc all dropping amazing new products.
I would also agree that GW appear to be attempting to ‘personalise’ each specific space marine codex, I think it probably started back with Dark Angels and is continuing on with Space Wolves, looking forward to seeing what they’ll do with Blood Angels.
love to see them do it with all the first founding chapters – mind you, being predominantly a Guard player I’m still one of those numpties who clings to the belief that one day we may see the Tanith 1st and Only, we may see the Mordians, the Praetorians, the Valhallans… Damn site easier with the marines however 🙂
Possible option for GW:
Epic.
Go back to it. They have the IP, the fluff, the armies, the designs. They’ve built interest in the units with the 40k knight and superheavy units – now let people build an army of them.
Sure, it will eat into the 40k purchasing that people do, but if someone has a 40k ork army and they’ve got everything thing that they’re planning to buy, how do you get them to keep spending more money? Another new £60 vehicle? Start a new army at the size that they’re used to for £400-600?
Nope, start them off with a new game, £50-100 to get things moving and then start the whole army building and collecting cycle again. By the time that’s all done with, three years down the line, or so, hit them with 40k again. Rinse and repeat until the sun collapses/Skynet takes over/the apes rule the world.
There’s definitely growing interest in smaller scales, what with Dropzone Commander doing well and Spartan Game’s Planetfall due to come out some time this year. I think GW could do well returning to a smaller scale game, or games. I’d personally love to see a rebirth of either Epic or Warmaster. I think a 10mm 40k or even 30k game would be wonderful, and would make way more sense than trying to force a 28mm skirmish shaped peg into a 6mm command level shaped hole (A.K.A. Armageddon).
The thing is, if they are going to go down that route then they’re going to have to announce something sooner rather than later. The longer they leave it the more potential customers they are going to lose to competing products (I’m eagerly awaiting the release of Planetfall myself).
Another great show lads!!
Quick point about STC however, to retcon would be a very bad idea I think. Yeah, made great sense when they first started out with 40k as you say, from the production implications but over the years I think it’s become a major part of Imperial fluff
That’s not to say STC is the be all and end all, the mechanicum doesn’t quite have the complete stranglehold over technological development as you’d think – techmarines, whilst being trained by the mechanicum still hold their higher loyalties as being to the chapter
Case and point, the Predator Annihilator was an abominable deviant at one point, the Space Wolves (I forget some of the details) were getting the stuffing kicked out of them by a chaos army, the long fangs with their lascannons were getting cut down as a result of being too exposed, so they altered the mounts of their predators to fit said lascannons, the next day the space wolves surged forward and vanquished the chaos forces from behind the ceramite safety of their tanks. STC, restrictive, but doesn’t necessarily halt development entirely
The best thing to have done would have been to question the technological monopoly in the new edition. Yes, the mechanicum is supposed to be the sole arbiter and distributor of technology, and if you look at the Imperial Guard for example that’s fine, you can’t have massive formations with the ability to sustain themselves (lesson from the heresy) but for others? The space wolf flying brick, the chariot, the dark angel flying church organ, the centurions, yeah, it’s awkward to have to keep going back saying ‘oh yeah this is all fine, we’ve rediscovered it’ or whatever but a better solution would to have been to say the marines, being the unique formations that they are do have a little more elbow room, as I’m sure a chapter will have a far greater personal relationship with the mechanicum via the techmarines than some frontier garrison commander from the Imperial Guard.
Mechanicum is devoted to the wider task of general rediscovery and the provisioning of the Imperial forces as a whole, if one or other of the specialist branches of the Imperium has the capability to conduct their own research, conduct their own expeditions then provided it’s done under the auspices of the mechanicum and provided it’s not for general consumption shall we say
No need to scrap the fluff, just need to point out that it’s not always possible/practical to adhere to the structures that they’re supposed to
Rant over. Love those white dragon minis btw…
I would love to see GW do a star wars ground battle game, maybe set in the clone wars, or a near future game would be cool.
what’s the best Sunday morning you could have? Well a big cup of milk, some cookies or chocolate and XLBS!
For our friends from GW and the “evolution” of 40k, the best thing they could do is redoing a world campain as they did with the 13th crusade or Armagedon but! This time make the result matter, so the world could evolve, of course it’s not easy to have all the races that could take part. However is it really necessery? Make a good campain make the world change for a good reason other than creating new boxes or weapons without explainations (new gravitons weapons for the Space marines, changing the look from the Hydra for the Imperial guard etc etc…. ). The first campain done like this will probably not be very convincing considering that the two previous one did not change a thing, but if they could rebuild their fans’ confidence….
however I ain’t working at Lenton 😉
Hi excellent show, really loved the discussion about GW.
Just a quick note, this is the first XLBS for a few weeks were I have had no problem with the video feed, did you guys change something ?
Heh, I have the same problem, Sam. Every time I start an army or I wonder what the primary colour for my RPG character should be, I always reach for green! 😀
Ooooo give me some two player starter box action :o)
Funnily enough every time I walk past a GW shop I have this urge to bend over and unclench… Another great show thx again guys :o)
Another great video
love the strategies idea for shows
One man shops don’t work for GW, our local closes for lunch, which is when the workers in the area go out to shop. New weekly White Dwarf doesn’t work, given up on it now
Classic case of cost cutting driving away the punters
Good show as always, thanks for putting these out every week
Warren i do not think you mean realistic on the sw boat… i think you mean serious… i had the same discussion with my gaming group, where “shoot the wolf” quickly appeared, and 40k is actually not that realistic.
i also think that gw need to give option for players for using the mini in an alternative way, because either you love the meta of the mini or th design, but for you to pick it up you have to love both.
alternative minis or alternative ways to use them will maybe be a way out for them.
like kill teams, it would be an excuse for them to release alternative minies, new ruleset or terrain, or more important gaming gadgets, without restrictict players to having to pay hundreds of bucks to play but to trust them that they will.
When people talk about things not being realistic, they really mean it breaks their suspension of disbelief. To buy into a story world requires suspending disbelief and it allows for all sorts of unrealistic things to be accepted. For example, it is not “realistic” for Daenerys Targaryan to have three dragons but it is within the bounds of the setting so disbelief is suspended. However, it would break the suspension of disbelief if she had three Sherman tanks, even though tanks are a real thing and dragons are not (sorry to say lol).
Lads, a group love in well earned this week. Loving the extra info you dish out each week. All the best with finding the apprentice. I’d apply, but the commute from Australia is a killer.
perhaps using skirmish games that provide models for use in 40k or warhammer is the way forward for bringing newbies in. not Necromunda as it was, but something that brings models for every 40k faction that can transfer into the mother game.
1man stores certainly a prob.
its strange how Fantasy flight has a lot of GW stuff, that they could be doing themselves.
i’d love to see them move the 40k narrative move forward.
i used to collect multiple 40k factions but with prices as they are im down to keeping 1 or 2 up to date.
sometimes i think that being controlled by shareholders is a bad thing….?
Man I was holding off on Dropzone because of the starter set price, now they drop the price in the middle of a mantic kickstarter! First world problems.
I find GW such a frustrating company. I have been a fan since the really early days and have repeatedly watched them make commercial decisions that leave me shaking my head in wonder. They have some of the greatest IP’s in the world and instead of exploiting them by branching out in new directions they just seem to be able to think about selling more models (or fewer models at an increased price).
Look at Marvel if you want to see how a company with a rapidly vanishing cash cow can successfully branch out to fully exploit the value of their IP.
I was talking with GW about helping them put together a media strategy back in the early 2000’s and while they were interested in talking about it there was no real appetite from a senior exec level to move outside their comfort zone. Maybe this will jar them into action and we will finally start seeing some awesome cartoons, tv shows, movies etc…. which will recruit new players but more importantly could be turned into a cash cow in their own right.
I liked the ex-girlfriend comment. I would have to say ex-wife though. You start off loving her, then hate her. It then mellows out to a like-dislike thing. But no matter what you feel, you still wind up paying the bitch.
Looking forward to all the new shows.
Of course in the interests of fairness… exactly the same thing can be said about ex husbands 😉
Well, the Space Wolves definitely got a new identity. Space Santa’s Magical Wolf Elves…
Dropzone is looking really good.
GW doing a starwars game would be awesome
Great show guys. The Space Wolves chariot looks very awful to me. It’s just remembering me that Santa is coming around… But I am not convinced to bring chariots to a Scifi setting. Chariots better fit into a fantasy genre.
To the GW discussion: I think GW should start a skirmisher game. A normal WH40k game needs so much time. A skirmisher would enable us to play short games in the 40k universe. Over a skirmisher, GW would be able to draw attention back on to great battles in the real 40k.
I don’t know which is more WTF – Sam having a miniature in his pocket or Warren sniffing this miniature after hearing it’s been in Sam’s pocket 😉
BUSTED! 😉
..also on the matter of Gencon, hopefully someone will get a chance to play the new Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Skull & Shackles core set 😀
Here is one of the Shattered Void ships (I believe) painted up over on dwartist’s blog: http://dwartist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/the-draconus-class-interceptor.html
Thanks for a great Dropzone Commander weekend. It got me into the game. I did as I said yesterday, I went to another country to pick up the game. Im glueing the UCM right now. Would love to get one of the starter sets, so I can expand my collection.
Its an interesting discussion on GW there. Not sure if the IP-route is the one to take, because they’ll still have high prices, and as you said, its not pocket money anymore.
Cheers
Driving to another country to by your mini’s, now thats Hard core 🙂
That is dedication to the hobby – 10pts! 😉
10pts duly applied 😉
Nice work @peacefulwarrior!
I’m so sick of hearing about DZC. Please let me win so I can go on about it as well!
A show that isn´t about Dropzone Commander? How dare you BoW! 😉
Would be hilarious if it turns out GW have bought the rights to Star Wars. The Hobbit comes to an end in December and the new Star Wars movies begin in 2015. It would be perfect timing for GW to switch film licenses.
Welcome to the new age @warzan – Lloyds “iPad of Devastation!” – classic!
Another fun XLBS, enjoyable as always! You guys and your childish humour – awesome! lol 🙂
Sam’s Razide(?) was cute, like a giant amphibian with a serious BFG, oh and Sam transports stuff like myself on occasion. Always have the super glue ready lads. 😀
‘Wolsung Strategems’ sounds sweet! I enjoyed Lukas’ input last time so it will be brilliant to have him back.
Can’t stand the ‘wolf chariot’ – I get where you are coming from about thematic approach – still think its pants! I could design any number of models with a Nordic theme for Space Wolves, but that doesn’t mean it will be a good idea… Admittedly I think Logan Grimnur himself looks awesome. 😛
Games Workshop just need to cut back. Take a breather. They are too big and too heavy with miniatures in the current ranges. I agree with Warren, an IP license would be the ticket, however I believe that they incapable of pulling off a deal. They are too bloated and insular plus many smaller companies are in a position to do a better job.
Loyd is right about there being only some much time to invest in a hobby. Ten years ago GW was the main table top hobby. Since then a huge number of amazing games have hit the scene, on top of the already existing competition, and these companies are proactive, innovative, and custom centric.
GW’s ‘Specialist Game’ ranges have been superseded by better supported and developed systems from a host of much smaller companies that are now strong competitors in the market share. No wonder GW dropped them and now they are stuck with two lumbering legends that are becoming stale…
OK. Shattered Void looks cool. A friend of mine has a big SW:X-Wing collection and I want to get something in a space battle game. BF Gothic is no longer and I have wondered about Spartan Games system but this looks interesting. 🙂
Great show guys as always.
Great video again guys, for the logan grimnar a lot of the criticism I have seen has been that it is a silly concept.
My issue with it is Logan and the wolves are just plain badly sculpted.
The fur on the wolves and on logans cloak is extremely poor, the old logan and wolf models from other manufacturers are far, far superior.
For a company with the resources GW have, and who market themselves a s making ‘the best miniatures in the world’ it is inexcusable. Its the sort of poor detail you would get from a one man band selling home cast metal minis for a couple of quid a go, for the prices GW charge it is just unacceptable.
Two player starter set a great way to get into DZ. Tempting!
Good show, thanks again for an interesting and enjoyable debate.
Dreaming up solutions for GW’s dilemma is all fine and well, and I’m sure everyone could add another personal wishlist. In the end, though, GW have narrowed down their options trying to force the 70’s students’-RPG patchwork they started with into a streamlined IP. Wolf-drawn sleds are less a sign of care than a desperate measure to claim uniqueness – to be honest, who else in his or her right mind would come up with such awkward designs from scratch?
May I also allude to their recent back-pedalling on non-English editions of books? Well, I’m aware that the UK and US markets are probably still the biggest share. But given the dominance of anglophone products in wargaming many people ’round here, both youngsters and adults, were drawn to GW because there was no such language barrier. Add to that scrapping shows abroad, and again they lose a lot of recruiting potential by essentially cocooning.
And last but not least GW’s losing ground – like all wargaming – to video games. “Instant gratification” is a big deal here: get a video game and start playing immediately in a ready-made, immersive environment; or get models, stick them together, preferably paint them and buy or build a bit of terrain for a game that requires reading rules, checking tables and, shockingly, doing a bit of maths. Easy decision, not only for fickle kids but full-time job adults as well. Video games and their IP’s are no use to GW if they don’t resort to just releasing action figures.
So, whatever ‘big news’ they’ve announced, I won’t believe in a change of direction at GW, be it acquiring IP’s or the revival of Specialist Games, until I see it happen. My expectations are rather low, anyway.
On second note, I honestly envy anyone in your region who has the chance to learn his trade at BoW. Actually I’m hunting for a job right now and would love to work on the Isles; but it has to pay the bills, so probably not a viable option.
In terms of GW moving the settings for 40K & WFB, they really messed things up by not capitalizing on the changes set up by the Storm of Chaos and Eye Of Terror campaigns a decade ago.
Both introduced some extraordinarily fluffy armies for gamers to model, a host of flavorful characters and some major changes to the status quo. Instead 40k has reverted to being just on the brink of Abaddons 13th Black Crusade launching, whilst the only real change to WFB has been Volkmar the Grim returning (and even then, his death was originally part of the build to SoC in a White Dwarf battle report).
I don’t think that now we’d have any trust in GW carrying through on promises to shake up their settings.
As for new IP’s or licences? I can’t see GW pursuing a licence in the same way they did LOTR, and really the only licence that I think could get them those sorts of returns on the investment in acquiring said licence would be Star Wars, which I just can’t see sitting on the shelves of your local GW… In terms of something new I’m not even sure Workshop COULD come up with something completely new, not without taking risks the current management seems fundamentally afraid of.
New IP’s take time to establish, a known and popular IP would give them instant interest. Video games are a prime target as they are popular and if you pick the right one they have a long life and following. There is that challenge of breaking into that user base to play something physical but I don’t think it’s something that would fail.
I do believe that the price of miniatures is excessive, I don’t see how younger players can afford to play.
I really enjoy the 40k universe and have done since I was about 10 years old. I love the fiction, art and models (mostly). At this stage I have functional armies for the races/factions I am interested in with no plan to ever expand them. For the price level (equivalent 38GBP for a tactical squad for example) I really just don’t feel the need to get anything else. With the release of 7th edition (83GBP equivalent) so soon after 6th I have given up on GW. I am I bit upset about this to be honest as the universe is brilliant and I want to still feel a part of it. There is of course the exciting prospect of sinking into a new universe, the only real question is what one? Luckily we gamers are spoiled for choice at the moment 🙂
Yet another great show in the can! I said it before and I’ll say it again, XLBS & coffee is the be(a)st way to start your Sunday.
Shatterd Void looks really interesting.
A new Wolsung SSG show sounds fantastic!
GW really needs a new IP, something new and fresh with all new game mechanics, no more yougoigo and ‘to wound charts’.
Yep that space wolves chariot is making me feel the need to slap a GW employee. But anther great weekender.
Workshop should release a bloody epic 30k with NEW aliens species that were whipped out during the golden crusade. Combine a very popular game, a very populare time set and add new exciting species.
And as for Star Wars IP, armada from FFG is really promising 🙂
Talking about strange GW stores stories, at the Sheffield Store on the moor,there was an incident where they had banned a particular person from the store. He came back later that day, and asked if the ban could be lifted. The guy in the store, said no, the banned customer then said, in tha case I release the pidgeon. He had managed to capture and place under his coat a live pidgeon, which he then let loose in the store and left. Which meant the staffer had to chase this manky pidgeon around the store. There were feathers all over the shop….lol..
I’ve never played a game outside of GW and dropzone commander looks pretty epic from yesterday’s video so I might have to give it a go. I find the GW situation infuriating as do you carry on with it or start looking at something new. I think purchasing a new IP would be smart for GW but will they swallow there own pride and back track on there own policies? Quite unlikely which would be quite obtuse at the higher levels. A third system is needed definitely but a cost effective system aimed at kids with pocket money which will allow them to get there bang for there buck. Not essentially having to lead into 40k or Fantasy but have the option.
GW – been throuh a ‘cycle’ or two with them and frankly got bored with the “Bigger armies/tables/battles” mantra that led to games that took 30 mins to set-up yet alone th ehours of play; don’t even mention the disjoint between targetting new customers (<15yr old) with higher prices through a recession.
Moved onto various skirmish, and while it probably doesn't represent 10% of their revenue (although it felt like it) my net spend with GW in past 24 months is less than a a fraction of what it was and I've invested my adult pocket money instead in…
– Myth KS
– Mercs Recon & TT KS
– Infinity Starter
– Malifaux
– Bushido
– Infamy/ Dungeon Saga/ Demigods all on the go atm.
Loads of variety, lots of shorter games with a wider variety of friends/gamers than before. I'll still turn up ocassionally with one of my many GW armies for a game – just keep it compact (<2000 pts) and let's have some fun.
Great show, always interesting to see different view points – now if that chariot is support space wolf players want is possibly the bigger question.
All the new mini’s look great but it does highlight what you are saying about there being too much choice. Although I think if there can be time for the industry to mature that will only beneficial going forward
Re: GW – I agree it is time for something new, although I do think a repackaging of fantasy so as to provide a more accessible route in would be worthwhile. It is potentially a way to rapidly generate new sales in the interim.
IP wise it is about the correct fit – and IP based games tend to have constraints and limitations. GW has done well from them – LotR was a massive success but they failed to plan for its limited life. It has also done badly with the hobbit as @warzan says its not an IP that lends itself to wargaming particularly well – although the system is great for scenario driven skirmishes, but it has been supported dreadfully. If the third film doesn’t receive some breed of mass battle support – GW will have no-one but themselves to blame for failure to captialise on what potential there was.
I do think something entirely new is definitely a positive – but they also need to consider how that fits with ongoing support for 40k/WFB. If that means streamline the number of army books or creating a low maintenance system I am not sure. Because while sales maybe down with the existing a lack of support will kill the game from a business perspective. the trouble is, if you are going big what do you do to create a brand new IP that will catch, and will compete with what is already existing while providing a reason to change.
I do disagree with @warzan re ‘skirmish’ games, I think it was the ending of small side games that opened big gaps in the market. I also think that a lot of success is being had with skirmish games – due to costs, space needed and time. If done correctly a skirmish game very rarely sticks to what is in the box – I know no one that just had one gang or one team for the old specialist games. It also tends to bare a higher price per mini, that a large battle game can.
My ideas, which will highlight why I am not a games developer are as follows, and it it helps GW have them for free. Because I want them to be what they were:
1) Fleet based combat – warhammer 40 k setting – individual ship packages with rules a’la x-wing. Or fantasy ship setting – with possibility to build all fleets – I maintain Dreadfleet’s failure was due to not being the game people wanted rather than being a bad game.
2) Small scale mass battles – 40K, or more temptingly 30K (10-15 mm) or fantasy or properly support a warmaster style ancients game. However massed titan and tank battles appeals. Boxing could be done by squadron or super heavy. Expansion covering different armies.
3) Warband rules – with full campaign and development Inc vehicle rules if sci-fi. Personally I would love to see this be the core of a warhammer reboot.
4) 28 mm Inquisitor – with full rules for all armies – to encourage buy ins.
5) 40K setting dogfighting system – again drawing off building up by plane or squadron. Trouble is these can be limited life span and you are going up against likes of x-wing etc.
6) Post apocalyptic mass battle system – with a possible twist of being pre-unification Terra -focus on vehicular combat. Or even resurrect the old Dark Future setting.
Nothing brilliantly creative I admit. But all I think could offer something different.
Great show.
I’m not a 40k player so I look at the space wolf chariot just as a model and I think it looks like great fun to paint
Another great weekender guys!
I think the logan grimnar miniature pictures him in his space bathtube (GW trademark), behing rushed to battle having had just time to wear his armour.
Would love to see a conversion of a naked dude with a towel on his hips in the space bathtube (trademarked).
The New Plastic army starters are going to go a long way toward quieting the argument that DzC is too expensive to get started.
Another great show guys… very interesting I have to say DZC sounds like a fun game…but really do I need to get into something else…lol
Interesting listening to all this stuff about GW…so true with the analogy of the Ex Girlfriend…lol I got into GW in the days when Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay came out then the book version of Warhammer Fantasy Battle…then played Bloodbowl, Heroquest, Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Dark Future, Necromunda, Battle Fleet Gothic, Warmaster, Epic.. they had so many great titles before they turned into a 2 game wonder and started ramping up the prices to sustain the ever growing costs of running the Empire.
I think GW need to go back an look at their entire IP and revitalise it…it was a comment that they were out of the box games but for things like Bloodbowl I spent more on extra stuff than the cost of the Boxed game..
Ok my two pennys worth…:-)
Another good show guys keep up the good work
You are in the games shop with £35 to spend.
If you choose to buy 10 Witch Elves, turn to page 41
If you choose to buy a Dropzone Commander starter army, turn to page 247
Another great show, going from strength to strength.
As always a fantastic excuse to laze about on a Sunday morning, cheers guys. And congrats to Lloyd for finally managing to neutralize one of Warren’s rants!
I don’t think the GW business is so bad they say. The company is Huge, it won’t go down easily.
GW really seems to be in a tight spot- but I think it would be a shame if they discarded their own IPs that have been building up over the past 25 or whatever years- all the novels and so on give WHFB and 40K a real sense of history that is fairly unique- a license of someone else’s IP would be gambling on the IP being not only a success, but a continuous success after the hype inevitably died down (see their LOTR range after the films ended).
I have no real idea how they’d go about it, but they need to try and somehow reconnect with the veterans who they have alienated over the years as well as encouraging newcomers. I think both types of customer, old and new, might be reached through improving accessability- by which I mean not the starter sets and two-player boxes but simply price! Many older players (myself included) just can’t afford GW prices due to family, mortgage and other real world concerns, and younger players can’t afford to make inroads as the price is prohibitive- I remember meticulously planning out the purchases of my WHFB armies over weeks and months: in a fortnight my £2 a week pocket money would get me a couple of blisters or a plastic box set, but nowadays I’d be looking at about a month or more for the same!
I wonder if a ‘budget range’ might be an idea- like the old plastic sets with 10 single part plastic models in them- with the increase in GW’s plastic production ability (see Island of Blood etc) there is no reason why these single piece minis have to be poor quality- of course I don’t pretend to know if that would actually be a viable thing! 🙂
Anyway, just my two pennies worth- apologies for the long post!
Another great show, cheers
Maybe GW pumping out kits at a rate of knots (with large kits too) is an attempt to show potential investors (clients) what range they can cover. If they made a 28mm star wars game in time for the new movies, imagine how much they would make? I know Warren has said how much would they make if the release a plastic titan, but how much would they make if they released a plastic AT-AT
Question about those Demigod Rising minis you showed off, were those the final plastic sculpts they are planning or some other material? I have been debating about whether to back this game, but am uncertain about the quality of the plastics after seeing some comments on here about other KS games that fell short of their promises. I know they have resin casts that will be available as well, but I may be able to forgo them if the plastics will look that good. After all, there is that pesky Resistance faction releasing very soon…
That’s a good point. I fear it’s some sort of restic and I’d like to be proved wrong
perfect weekend on b.o.w awesome dropzone special yesterday then my weekly dose of you guys talking gaming perfect, cheers guys
Their’s really only one place the 40k fluff can head imo that would bring me back: a schism on mars that leads to a huge civil war. On one side you’d have the stalwart old school adeptus mechanicus (who’re possibly indoctrinated by the dragon in the vaults) saying that it has to be done this way because its always been this way, and then you have the techmarines they’re training who have different loyalties just nodding and smiling politely, until one of them(an ultramarine) and a few initiates say “bollocks”, the admech disagree violently then the techmarines chapter start asking why he was executed, and don’t like the answer, so send a diplomatic mission to mars led by their morst respected member Tigurius, who due to being a Psyker, senses the dragon and warns Calgar, Calgar tells everyone, a bunch of Chapter Masters are outraged that the admech would challenge them or be beholden to anything but him-on-earth, but some think the Ultramarines are just trying it on to put them back at the top of the pile, they’re already bitter about Guilliman’s pamphlet telling them how to run their chapters becoming law, the high lords side with the ultramarines, everybody thinks the other side are in revolt and inevitably since its 40k, shots start being fired, and nobody’s sure who started it…
A third (or even forth if they insist on pushing the time sink that is LOTR) IP would be very simple for gw to produce from scratch, but I think it has to go from an existing fan base somewhere, Gears of War I don’t think is big enough to work, Halo is probably about 3 years late and both might even still be tied up with heroclix or someone else.
* There’s. Can we have an edit button yet?
I hope that prodos brings some aliens vs predator when they come to bow
I like Dropzone be interested to see how it will do now that Planet Fall is coming out! Also I was told that ther was a leak from the spartan crew somewhere for Planet Fall and that GW used the info to add the new rules to the new edition of 40K….not sure if its true but would not put it past them. what with the talentdrain they are going through.
There* Talent drain* why is there no edit button on these posts…
So many better games out there that are better then anything that GW has to offer.
Im sorry but if the guys at Hawkwargames can drop the price of the starter set then why cant Games Workshop. That’s the answer 35 quid for a starter set yeah im in. Not a lot too loose if I don’t get on with it.
I remember a Salute a while back when Games Workshop had a large stand with all of their kit. Now remember at Salute you normally find ‘show deals’ ‘four for the price of three’ etc. When I asked the Workshop guys what deals they were doing I got the blank look as if I had just crawled out from under a log. Fair enough but two stands down was a guy selling exactly the same kit but an independent and guess what 10% of this 20% of that etc. My point is most places do promotional special offers etc when was the last time Games Workshop did. Where are the starter deals buy a complete package with codex etc for 10% off you never will because they just pound/dollar signs well time to wake up and get a slice of reality cause you aint the only ones on block and I know where my money goes these days.
Anyway guys a great show as always and thanks may you go from strength to strength and get Dave on I miss him.
Morning all
Love the GW results part 2 and possible fixes.
On GW i totally agree Warren, anything and everything they do now is a risk. Certainly banging that same drum isnt going to fix the current situation nor do i think a re-pumped fantasy aka throwing money at something already below the radar for many is not the right option no matter how much you try and fluff it up with the return of Nagash and possible effects which may or may not rock the Warhammer World (just like the old global and yearly campaigns – storm of chaos etc)
On 30/40K….. 30k personally feels like the Horus Heresy has been bashed to death also over the last 5 years and the imagery has become somewhat dull and products are continually rammed down my throat every week with new emails on this kit, that kit, new guns and book after book after book that really no one coupld hope to start now as the product range is simply too big (Black Library, Forge World and regular GW products).
40k – well that has never moved forward…there is always something looming on the horizon but it never seems to hit (Abaddons next dark crusade, Necron Threat Rising, Eye of Terro Expanding, Golden Throne Failing, cracks everywhere in the Imperium etc etc)
Ultimately GW is a miniature producing company, which makes toy soldiers and is interested in shipping units.
As per last weeks discussion and my own personal thoughts and agreement GW appear to have released the most, revisited the biggest races and revised their largest game system and still a drop in sales. Whether this is down to price, player preference, too much choice, peoples interest in other systems, back ground and more is anyone’s guess because in all honesty the data doesn’t exist anywhere to give us a real indication.
Going forward for GW – well IP’s certainly are the best options tbh. I don’t think revisiting older GW games like Gothic and Mordhiem, Necromunda and Inquisitor (specialist or those relegated to specialist) is the answer as other games and companies have stepped into the gap (Spartan, Mantic etc).
– On a side note – I know Mantic has had huge success with an IP and have demonstrated they can affectively look after it and make it a massive success (Mars Attacks Kickstarter). In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if Mantic go for others down the line!
Back to GW – Star Wars would be a good call and choice certainly…..in reality whether they can afford it given the cash flow issues last year or even now Disney own Star Wars and will be no doubt demanding a HUGE asking price or even if the IP is available to buy from Disney and doesn’t currently sit with another company is anyone’s guess (Who knows who has what in the works for episode 7 and existing saga?).
I could certainly see GW able to produce big kits like walkers flyers down to miniatures and character models but most of these are already avaliable from model companies and have been done in the past by the likes of WOTC etc (albeit it varying levels of quality and success)
Another question would be to what (if GW were able to secure Star Wars) kind of product GW should release for Star Wars….do they go models on a sprue or look to FFG and X-wing/Armada with the mega selling pre painted option?
– Many might say no ‘i wanna paint and make’ etc but you cannot deny FFG are making a bucket of money selling what is a super high class quality product in X-wing and no doubt Armada….heck it feels like an action figure and from my perspective REAL VALUE, specially given its an out of the box painted with tokens and ready to go miniature.
Simply FFG cant make X-wing products fast enough to keep up with demand vs GW who are making stuff too fast and have no demand.
Warren, you mentioned Battlestar Galactica, a very good call and something again i could see GW making and producing kits of various Battlestars, Clyon ships and fighters for a fleet based game. There is the huge Cylon war both in the original late 70’s series and 2000’s series which has only ever been hinted it so plenty of space and scope for development for sure…..BUT i think FFG would put out a better product (yeah with more tokens too) of BSG whether is a carbon copy of X-wing on a Viper vs Raiders level and start box or Armada style Battlestar Vs Basestar type of box…again all pre-painted and out of the box to play.
Halo and Gears as IP choices…..
Halo at the moment seems to have been hit and miss story wise. While certainly its been huge in terms of units sold on the Xbox and products released (Action figures, Mega Bloks, Books, T-shirts and other stuff). Agreed with Lloyd on this one that its certainly not on the rise at the moment but very much everyone’s aware of it but i doubt playing at this moment – aka not popular enough :/
Halo could be a good choice for GW but which era of Halo would you pick to make product in and would GW want to be restricted by Microsoft and MS Studios dictating the story and direction or would you like to see as in LOTR umpteen versions of the Master Chief like Gandalfs or Aragorns from a releases and product perspective
Halo would scale up nicely though on a skirmish or full on battle but could i see it going Apocalypse with Pelican Dropships and Scarab Walkers being produced….hmmm maybe but you’d need a huge player base to warrant this.
Gears of War as an IP – again a nice choice and i personally wouldn’t mind more Gears related products (I’m sat on the FFG board game and love the miniatures dreaming they will produce more product). I feel it would be something along the lines of Inquisitor and super detailed on a skirmish level but could scale to regular 40k 1500 pts size of game with Raven Helicopters, tanks and Brumacks as large multi part kits.
GW could also go the route of Gears Themed Terrain which given its industrial and Cog Esq. look could fit well and nicely into steam punk for the industry so there is an option there also.
My only concerns about Gears would be, 1- like Halo its not a ‘current’ IP or game coming out and the popularity I believe would be based on a newly released Xbox title to really drive people to play and collect, 2 – several versions of each Character released…young Marcus, Old Marcus, Summer Marcus, Armoured Marcus, Unarmoured Marcus, Marcus with a Lancer, Marcus with a Hammer of Dawn etc
All in all while I could see GW going either or route re an IP choice Im very much doubting they will in all honestly. Most likely from the restrictions and contracts GW have had with Newline and Warner Brothers on the LOTR has probably put them off from doing anymore IP lead ventures.
I think the smaller companies are more braver at the moment re innovation (Micro Arts Studio, FFG for tacking a high end pre painted product etc). While GW have got the big kit and design facilities down along with integrated ERP and stocking/picking systems I feel they are still stuck in their hobby bubble.
Time will tell I guess on which way GW go but an IP could be the answer to all there problems…..
Interesting. I agree that GW needs more than one (even more than two) legs to stand on.
But I don’t think I would make other people’s IPs the “big one”, precisely because GW wouldn’t be in control over the ebbs and flows of its popularity (e.g. Gears of War).
GW should probably do one-off boxed games for other people’s IPs (including perhaps a good, but one-off Hobbit box, while they are still at it, abandoning the pretense of this being a “hobby”, but also not wasting the franchise, while they still have it, and make a fun “little” game).
Then try to build up something different, long-term, fully GW-owned, that is not Warhammer/40K. Gonna take trial and error, however.
Cool stuff, looking forward to the warzone ressurection content especially.
Great show! Yes I know it’s Dropzone Commander weekend but maybe GW might get back into Epic 10mm.I love that system with loads of tanks/ infantry and or course titans.They must still have the castings of the older models and they can make the updates of new ones like the imperial knights.
I started my journey with games workshop back in the Mid 80’s, and we can talk about ip this and ip that But the biggest and only reason they are seeing a decrease in sales is due one issue in two parts.
1st is their pricing is way to high compared to the rest of the industry , so they have been steadily pricing themselves out of the market.
2nd The money that we may have spent on Workshop stuff we redirect to another Company/Games because of the smaller scale and entry price point.
Done
nice show.
There is so much GW could have done, and I know people who used to work for them making good suggestions as well, but senior management don’t want to listen to anyone outside their circle, as they seem to have an attitude of “since we were here first we know better”
Well that is the way things get out of touch, and left behind eventually,
it won’t happen, but even now, the company is not what it used to be, and the scale of enthusiasm and fanbase/customer base they now have is nothing compared to what they used to.
Sure they still get new players, but if sales are going down, how many old players did they loose, for the new ones not being able to make up the difference.
Maybe GW just needs to scale down to being a regular gaming company again. I mean, how excited is Mantic right now about Dungeon Saga? Yet when the guys talk about GW doing smaller scale games like that, they make it sound like it would be terrible for them. If putting out a successful game that doesn’t cost a $1,000 to play isn’t enough for your company, then your business model really should get reviewed.
I think the Marvel universe would make for an awesome ip if the rules were done correctly.
It could easily be a skirmish game (super heros vs villains) or massive battle (super heros vs aliens e.g the avengers) depending on what you wanted to do. You would also be able to expand on it forever as the movies have only scratched the surface of the different races out there.
DZC is loads of fun to play
GW have had a torrid time online for the past two -years- Lloyd? 🙂
Add a zero to that I fear. Workshop have always had a fractious online fan-base. They’ve spent the best part of the last ten years with their faces turned to the online wall with their headphones on blaring the audio-book of Tom Kirbys Newspeak dictionary.
Not convinced a new IP is in any way the best solution. In as far as there is a solution, they need to get their existing customer base back, that’s a lot easier than trying to build a new base. That’s always going to be the hardest slog.
I really think they could fix it in two years. The first step (as it so often is) is to publically eat a massive steaming plate of crow. They need to return their prices to a pre-crash level. They don’t need to compete on price with Mantic, but we don’t need to see anything like £35 for 10 WFB figures.
It was one product price change that made me say “forget it” and walk away. It’ll take a lot more than one reasonably priced set to win me (and others) back.
Warren says that bringing back Mordheim will not work because it’s a single set. That’s only if they follow GW’s final policy for specialist games rather than the old model. In the past a specialist game had a large range of figures in stores for people to expand into. If they are careful about what they bring back and limit to one or two specialists and actually support them in-stores, they would have some extra revenue. It’s not the be-all and end-all, but it might help a bit.
They really don’t have long though. If a price cut is the route they’re going to follow it will take time for people to find their way back.
So my three point plan would be:
Reduce prices to 2007 levels.
Engage with their audience properly (ask James Hewitt how to do this).
If stuff is to be re-launched make it the right stuff, and actually -support- it
Oh and can I win a DZC starter box pls? k,thx,bye.
really do like the look of drop zone not into 40k much but the models are nice
I fully believe that part of GW’s demise is gamers spending the money on other games. This is not just an issue for GW but every game’s company. I am concerned that the miniature game industry is reaching saturation point. I mean, realistically, how many games companies can the relatively small market sustain.
I have scene this effect my local gaming community over the last few years. 10 years ago with a lot fewer games, tournaments and events had a great turnout, which as an organizer made it affordable to run and cover costs. However, recently tournament and event s that specialize in one game are finding it a lot harder to get enough numbers to cover costs. This I believe is due to the mass of gamers being split into too many games systems and gamers not having the time or budget to commit to more than a handful of games.
What do you guys think, how many games can this industry sustain without it effecting them all overall?
Hey guys looking to get into dropzone but I want to find out a bit more on how the armies play. I’m thinking of going with the PHR or resistance but id need some advice on how the PHR are played since i’m new. Anything helpfully will be appreciated.
Tut tut Sam spoilers
Love the Dropzone game, hope you guys will be doing some more terrain tips in hobby lab. Already bought a lot of woodland scenic mini trees to enhance the tiles.
Dropzone is very cool
some very interesting points raised guys, really enjoyed the show and those demigod mini’s look fab
Your take on the GW issues are interesting.
Been meaning to pickup Dropzone Commander for sometime now. Come on, winner winner chicken dinner.
I’d live to Star Wars done as a decent quality and widely covered miniatures game and I think GW are def the company to do it justice. I have hated GW for a couple of years but Star Wars would get me back to spending on there products. Also GW would do it right in regards to quality and detail which would full inline with the Star Wars/disney brand.
Two great drop zone commander prizes in one weekend…. thanks
bhahha… “we move data by car..” that was really funny.
Great video. I have been watching DZC commander for a while with interest. The only thing stopping me is that I cannot find a good group of players. I think I need to try and introduce it to be current GW gaming group.
DZC for free would be awesome… Perhaps GW should take a little chat with Hawk, in ordre to come back on the right track..
I don’t think GW needs to go IP hunting yet, they still have some great possibilities with their current IPs
You mention that 40k and fantasy have become too big for new players.
The simple solution would be to make skirmish or warband level games within the same IPs, think something akin to the two lord of the rings games they had
so one game will be with 15-30 miniatures a side for people to get into the world and once they have built up a collection they can use the same collection in the conventional 40k/fantasy, who then again scales up to apocalypse levels
It would lower the barrier of entry quite a bit, bringing in new players.
They already sniffed at it with the warband and kill-team respectively, but the rules where rushed into the gutter, where it was left to rot.
As for new games, they could look at some of the old specialist games again.
The old Mordheim and Necromunda would be a perfect way for GW to reestablish why they are the kings of miniature gaming.
They expand their terrain for the tighter boards, GW does have some of the best plastic terrain in the industry.
They release everything in plastic, small boxes for the juves/braves, multipart single-mini boxes (think the empire general and the space marine commander) for the heroes and specialists and upgrade/level-up kits on the side.
Because it is plastic it is easier to convert and it would be easier to compete with the existing skirmish games on the market on price.
There’s not much competition on fleet games and while I would love to see Battlefleet gothic come back, I think expanding Dreadfleet into a full game, would be better, the ships they put out for it had a lot more personality
In 40k they would probably be better off scaling it down to dog-fighting level
Aeronautica Imperialis, had some great models, but it was obvious that they had a bias towards the Imperial guard, that they did not put a lot of effort into it (The rules was basically a worse version of X-wing)
And that is generally GWs big problem, they never invest in anything other than 40k and fantasy (with fantasy starting to feel a bit neglected) and they never stick to it, no matter how good an idea is, so they never get to grow into a profit.
The Space Wolves chariot is aweful, and I agree that GW needs a new game/IP. I for one won’t be buying or playing WHFB or WH40K ever again. I’m more interested in other company’s offerings at this point.
If GW gets a Star Wars License I need to talk to my bank about long term credits over the next years. And I actually think it would be a great idea.
I mean OLD / CLASSIC Star Wars of course. GW is at a point where its products got really expensive and a lot of its customers from the past 20 years grown about 20 years older. Most of those guys have families now, make a shit load of money and love original Star Wars. IMHO it would be a great place to start reactivating this “old” customer base and making a lot of money on the way. And besides Stormtroopers vs. Space Marines I think it would be far away enough from 40k not overlap to much.
Seems that the BOW crew has not much faith in the future of GW. And to be honest, I think that they will struggle with all the nice other games around. Leaving the fluff and the rules aside and looking just at the models they have released in the last few months, for me there is not that much WOW effect as with other games. The models are generell bulky and although the are detailed the are not as delicate as the Infinity models or designed with as much love like the Dropzone stuff where pretty much everything works as it is supposed (rotating engines, opening and closing ramps). GW comes up with things like the Centurions, which is just crap…
The only GW related things that I buy at the moment are paints and some Forgeworld stuff. Have a Reaver and a Warhound Titan as well as a Thunderhawk Gunship and the Minis from the Horus Heresy Character Series waiting to be build/painted. These are spot on. Super casting, extremely detailed. It seems as if Forgeworld is an other company than GW and not a part of it.
I love drop zone commander one of the best around
I think the best way for GW to get out of the (perceived?) mess they as in is to try and launch a couple of, as i call them feeder games. The likes of ultramarine and lost patrol. They give you a couple of squads for different factions and an introduction to the background of 40k.
Or failing that launch a new range for dark future.
GW as a company act with all the responsiveness of an oil tanker. We’ve just gone through one of the longest recessions in decades and how have they responded to their customers having less cash? They put prices up. Effectively forcing people to look elsewhere to get more bang for their buck. It’s no wonder games like infinity etc are doing so well as you require less models to have good games. GW should of been releasing skirmish type games and then as the economy starts to pick up and people get more spare cash they’ll go for the big battle games. It will be interesting to see now if people start to go back or as I suspect stick with the companies that have come in and filled the gap in the market.
You make a really good point. With a worldwide recession there are fewer dollars to buy expensive GW armies. Maybe a return to Necromunda or something would be a better move.
Another great show. Feel sad about GW having first shopped with them when they only had the one store in Hammersmith and sold everybody’s products only having Warlock of Firetop Mountain to their name. They now seem to be trying to price themselves out of the market!
I think GW should finish updating all the codex’s and then let 40k stew for a while (like 5 years or so). I would keep doing the campaign supplements. Then like you guys said, get a new IP to concentrate on or start working on promoting WHFB.
Winning one of the DROPZONE boxes might be the chance for the club to start the game.
Great episode this week, and great discussion about the business of GW. Why I love BoW: yes it is about the hobby, but they also touch on the business.
My opinion is that GW needs to create a new IP, and not a license. Sorry Warren, I have to disagree with you here. If GW has the power to put time and money into a license that will last, at most, 5 years, they can put it towards a new IP.
It’s my belief that they should do something akin to Battletech (though not Battletech itself).
Let me explain:
In Battletech you have the rich background and fictional future-history, numerous factions and 4 or 5 ways to play – from the tactical level with a handful of ‘Mechs, to solar system conquest operations. While there are equipment lists for each faction, this does not limit gameplay. There’s no adding points to mix Inner Sphere or Clan, or Lyran Commonwealth or Free Worlds League, for example, and no modifiers in-game. You create a force based on battle value (points), print out the record sheets, and play. Want a Liao ‘Mech with Clan Hell’s Horses battle armor in just a throw-down game? Go for it!
In my opinion this is what GW needs, a game where there is a background, factions, and equipment lists if you’re going to be faction-specific in your game play, but that allows players to just pick and choose the equipment and troops they want without any odd rules or modifiers, and go to town. Want a tank that Faction A normally has and an infantry unit that Faction C normally has? Great, put them in your force and go for gold. I would prefer sci-fi, just because that’s my leaning, but GW has to figure that out for themselves.
I think they tried to do a little of this with their “Unbound Rules” for 40k, but a new IP where players can do this off the bat I think would really attract a lot of new players. GW has the talent to make amazing miniatures and artwork, a captive universe, and a creative team to make an excellent rules set. They could definitely leverage this for a new IP.
That aside, I’m looking forward to jumping in with BoW at Gen Con at their event on Saturday!
This DZC weekend just keeps on giving. Great show guys, bit disappointed Warren was cut down mid rant!
As a 40+ yr old returning to gaming after a significant time away I find GW products way to $$ to get into. My money is going to the new boys, Mantic and Warlord have made my return not only affordable but also really enjoyable. Why pay $$ for one GW model when you can be up and running with a full game from one of the others for the same financial output.
A free copy of DZC would really help with my return to gaming 😉
Agreed. I like 40K. But every time I buy just 1 unit of troops my checking account cries. Mantic has the right idea, along with former GW staff.
Another good show. Dropzone looks great… would love one of the sets
You can never have enough Dropzone, I think it’s the most exciting SF tabletop game in years personally. Great show as ever guys.
DZC in plastic, hell yeah. And there I was getting my mother to find my old Epic stuff in storage.
As for GW IP. People keep saying they need to acquire one. When, if you know GW, they have plenty stuck in the vault.
Given the popularity of a lot of post-apocalyptic themes in tv, media and games, I would look at something like Dark Future and reboot that.
I mean it’s Mad Max, small scale, and visually different to a lot of things, including 40k and Warhammer (no skulls everywhere). Also focus it on a smaller play area. Once that game is up and running, well just expand the setting. Start with car battles, move onto skirmish, etc etc.
Reckon I’m in for some Dropzone.
Starter set – got one, but another would be cool.
We’ll see what will happen to GW in the long term…
Loved the Demigod minis and looking forward to the Wolsung stuff (can’t wait for my kickstarter minis to arrive)
Accroding GW: I still miss Blood Bowl. Would be great to see a restart (while it may not help GW that much)
I’ like to see a return of smaller “specialist” games. Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordhiem, BFG, Man O War, Epic, Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Warhammer Quest. Even Dark Future. In fact its like I just made a list of my favorite games. All sadly abandoned.
I have to say, that as someone who had no interest in Dropzone before this weekend (10mm? who does that…) I’m pretty excited about Dropzone now. Although I’d really like to see some more play demos.
Great Weekender guys – very happy with my backstage membership and the plans you have for the future!
As a more ‘mature’ guy getting back into the hobby after a 20(+) year break GW antics fascinate and horror me. This was the shop that was at the heart of my early hobby experiences. Having dropped several hundred quid in my local GW over the last year it is galling to see how little i really have for that outlay.
Am now looking to other games (thanks for the coverage BoW) to expand and enjoy with my boys. Star Wars could be a solid choice IF GW could get the ip, look what it has done for Lego (I dare not admit how much I have spent on that stuff
Dropzone looks a good play. Really would like to give the game a try soon
great vid guys
I think that one of the problems of GW is that the company and it’s games are unknown unless you are already in the hobby or you are introduced by someone in the hobby. As GW does not care about it’s older players (long term customers) a lot of these wander off to other games. Now if these players introduce new guys to the hobby they will not point them towards GW games but to other games they currently play.
I think it would immensely help GW if they had introductory (is it called like this?) games that are sold at stores where you get boardgames and stuff and use these to introduce people to the hobby.
Definitely going to be keeping an eye on Shattered Void- those ships are totally sweet!
Someone pointed out that Logan Grimnar’s chariot is based on Thor riding his goat driven chariot across the sky, with his hammer Mjolnir. So here it’s Grimnar, on his hover sled, with his axe Morkai. When I first saw it I thought he was Allfather Christmas! 😀 But then again, where else does this image of Santa on his sled, pulled by reindeer come from, but from Thor, riding his chariot, pulled by goats. Therefore, for those who get the old Norse mythology, who also love the space wolves, they are the ones who get it, and will be buying it. I love all of that, plus the fact that it’s a bonkers idea in a sci-fi setting, but the space wolves are just mad enough to make it work. Maybe if the wolves are killed, a pair of wings pop out, and Grimnar can fly it around instead. 😀
Maybe a new game license for GW would work, or what about bringing back out Space Hulk? I always thought it was s stupid idea to have just released it as a limited edition set – maybe because they had LOTR going at the time, they couldn’t afford to do more than just a limited run. Now that the Tolkein stuff is nearly done and dusted, perhaps they could go back to it, or start with a new license. Although, I think from the financial preamble, they said they just wanted to make their own models now. I’d rather they’d come up with/bring back something of their own in order to cover the shortfall in Fantasy’s sales, than pander another company’s designs and ideaology. I’m not interested in GW’s Halo, or Gears of War or Star Wars games; I want something original by them; something that they’ve designed from start to finish, and done on their own terms.
I can see the point of using a license to bring in outsiders into GW’s other games, but if it’s just horse of another colour (can’t write that without thinking of the Wizard of Oz lol); another flavour of a fantasy game that has elves and dwarves, like LOTR, then what’s the point? Maybe if was from something else, like Mad Max (which they kind of did with Gorkamorka), then that could work, because right now, they don’t have a game in that style of universe, with customised and armed cars, and because the Mad Max remake will be out in the cinema soon; therefore they could capitalise on it’s publicity and have a cool game, based in a world that most people already know about and enjoy. I dunno. I just wished the damn buggers at GW weren’t shy of the press and talked to you guys ages ago. This speculation can drive one around the twist!
Im with warren on a mass effect ip game, you have loads of race with several different classes of types of warriors, it has a magic/psyhic powers with biotics. A skimmish game would be great just like the online multiplyer andthe ip could scale up to battle fleet size and have ship battlers
I want the starter set please!!!
You guys and your rapidly moving bushes!
Looking forward to the Wolsung content
The game and the owner are great!
Hello guys! Good episode, I like your thoughts on GW. AND it would be nice to show dropzone to some friends.
/Martin
Yeah, I really need to get into Dropzone. And I miss Battlefleet Gothic from GW. That was an amazing game.
An IP that would support a large scale wargame? DUNE.
And Warren, you’ve got a real point there about diversity amongst your product line and diminishing returns. When all you’re doing is reintroducing the same game and army over and over and over again, the problem becomes that not enough time has passed since people purchased product from the last go round. I started a SM army in 2009. I build slow, paint slow, and have a nasty habit of trying other games. When they released the new book for SM, I bought two things for that entire army. (Centurions and the new plastic Sternguard).
That they have accelerated the release schedule has only compounded this problem. I am hoping someone in that company realizes that they need to get an entire COMPLETE edition out with Codexes for every faction which works well with the same edition. As a relatively new player, I am more and more confused about what to buy, which dataslates I need, which supplements I want to try… on and on and on.
Whereas a nice company like PP or Hawk comes in, seems to have clarity of vision, an interest in growing both their share of the existing market and growing the market itself by making their game accessible and affordable, GW seems absolutely intent on the opposite.
The new starters for $55 USD for DZC ought to catapult them to the next level alone. I live in the US, and the interest for this game is growing, mainly tapped down by the perceived cost of the old starter sets (since when people think “starter set” they seem to have GW’s (not actually game legal or plug and playable) starter sets in mind),
For $55… that thing is a SMOKIN’ DEAL. If I were trying to get my friends, who are largely not tabletop gamers because they always balk at GW’s complexity and price, I think I could toss a $55 dollar proposition their way and they’d be sold.
But getting people to invest in DARK VENGENCE? For two armies they may not want to play? Madness.
If GW just tried to make things simpler (not rules necessarily, but clearer for the uninitiated) and lowered barrier for entry like cost, complexity, and ambiguity on rules, I think it would pay dividends. Their chance to do that in the near term to turn things around died with their release of 7th Ed, which is really just more of the same.
Personally I don’t think IP’s are the way to go for GW – they’re too “flash-in-the-pan” oriented for any notable investment being worthwhile. I think Lloyd was right in that they should return to Epic scales and offer the 2 variations in scale – whilst a 40k Apoc game is good fun, it takes ages to set up and play through. Now play out the same battle in Epic 40k, an afternoon or evenings gaming and everyones happy, and it didn’t break the bank to play it either.
Thanks to you BoW swines ( 😉 ) I’ve picked up FoW for large scale gaming where Bolt Action provided the close-up gaming scale, so I don’t need to collect vast armies at 28mm, spend days setting up games etc etc, where FoW will now allow me to play the same for WW2 where Epic would fit for 40k.
DZC is another example of scale where reduced scale minis provide great oppurtunity for small scale gaming on a large table, i.e. minis get smaller and therefore you can fit even more gaming storyline on the same size table.
So for GW – Bring back Specialist Games and don’t put all your eggs into the one (40k-shaped) basket.
By the way, Dawn of War got me into playing 40k TT. My Space marines are Blood Ravens in homage to that fact. 🙂 So it does happen Lloyd. 😀
HI @risenstar oh it does happen for sure but does it happen to a meaningful level. I would suspect the percentage of people playing the 40K video games that then go on to be a hobbyist probably isn’t that high but in saying that I was on a break from 40K my self and DoW pulled me back in for a while 🙂
The thing is the video game market is ULTRA competitive and I wouldn’t wont to be to reliant on revenue from that market.
What is better than DZC? Well, more DZC.
I know of at least three people who dropped out of 40k this year due to the release schedule. Admittedly their interest had been waining and wave of releases just tipped the balance. It has forced the issue. Do I really want to spend that much in such a short space of time on a game I don’t play that much anymore.
Also me introducing them to other games doesn’t help
I liked the Lloyd’s idea about GW wanting to bring Space Wolves to the forefront, that they are their own special army and are different from the Space Marines. Looking forward to seeing where they are going with that. LOVE the new space ship models….we looked them up and only found the facebook page….hoping to learn more about them! As always a great show – however I will never be able to look at the tin man in same way lol
Loving xlbs. Definitely worth the beer tokens
Oh, oh, pick me
Yes! Warzone Ressurection in Beasts!!!
The starter set is cool. The game looks amazing.
Would love to get my hands on the dropzone starter set. My new favourite game by a long way.
one of the problems is GW has had a few chances to create their own new ip like dreadfleet why they didn’t expand on the box using it to reviving the old man-o-war game instead we get a one off box that didn’t sell to well because people knew there’d be no follow up support same with space hulk the old version had expansion packs with alternate races and missions , I think that why the specialist games were allowed to die nobody was buying them because there wasn’t any support and they got know support because nobody bought them a self fulfilling prophecy .
I do not believe that scabbing a movie or video game will be the solution to GW’s lagging sales. They already have two complete universes that are unique…which is their strength….unique. You guys touched on the main reason the sales are lagging. Their price points are more than the market will bear. They will be forced to offer better Battalion or starter armies that are more reasonably priced…..”buy one Rhino get the second half off”…sort of promotions to drive VOLUME sales. They are in a position to now have to drive large volumes. They are also in a position they will need to get off the backs of the smaller stores and allow more online sales through the small stores. They now have to lower prices….especially to attract a younger player.
brill work on drop zone 🙂 – swaying me to play
I think rebooting Dark Future could be a great idea. GW could produce gangs, vehicles, buildings…It could be used a skirmish game and maybe scaled up.
Necromunda I think would be a good option as well. Gamers aren’t going to be content just to collect one gang either. They could produce civilian vehicles and buildings and of course there is 40K crossover with Necromunda. What about more miniatures and or terrain from non Horus Heresy novels?
Warzone is new to me, so bring on more content, it looks interesting. As for Dropzone Commander, best game ever! Well, certainly in the last three years. I need more minis so sling me a starter!
I think that Warhammer Fantasy needs to look at Warhammer 40,000 and borrow some gameplay elements from that. Now that’s not to say it should just be “Fantasy 40k” in terms of rules, but I do think there’s some elements of the current Fantasy which are too complicated. I think a good idea would be to get rid of the “formations” and the like and make it a bit more action-based and heroic feeling. Think less Ancient Skirmish Battles and more WarCraft III.
Also, rumour mill has it that Mordheim and Necromunda are going digital. Seems all spin-off games are now going straight to PC.
More Dropzone coverage is always welcome.
Seeing as GW has priced me out of 40k, I think DZC is a perfect replacement that I think I need to get into. I think this will be on my Xmas list.
Had a whole reply typed up about how GW could turn things around for them, but the truth is, I don’t care anymore. They were warned many times over that they’d alienate their loyal fanbase in favor of new blood, and they’ve done just that. The analogy with an ex-girlfriend that you keep thinking about is very apt: remember WHY you broke up with her, the fights, the mistrust, the abuse, and you’ll be happy you ditched her.
I’ve spend so much money on them in the past, have all their specialist games (which were the icing on the background cake) and many many armies for all 3 their main games. And I just don’t see myself ever playing them again. All those alternatives are there, and it’s all great stuff. The price isn’t the problem with GW, it’s them.
No really. Their prices aren’t REALLY that much higher than Privateer Press or Hawk Wargames. Mantic is cheaper, but really with Restic you get what you pay for (really now, I’ve had to buy brass brushes to wipe off scraped plastic mold lines). But the other games aren’t really that much cheaper. Although, Dropzone commander just got alot cheaper with their new starter boxes I must say. Nice move guys 🙂
But Games Workshop. Their history. Their arrogance. Their : “Warhammer IS the hobby, there is nothing else”. Other games are just more fun, have great storylines ,progressing now as well, look at Dropzone Commander again for example, but not just them. And best of all, I can actually buy them at my FLGS, or online wherever I want. I can play them there as well, it’s actually easier to get a game of Warmachine in than a game of Warhammer 40k now. All my friends and acquaintances play other games instead of 40k or WFB.
Why would I want to go back? Shoddy rules that need constant revising, codexes that aren’t updated before the new rules come out, almost exclusively powerplayers out there, a storyline that’s been stuck for years and no online support _at-all_ except a fullpriced webstore. It’s not a hobby anymore, it’s a business, and it’s painfully clear that it is.
I’ve scanned all my old White Dwarfs to PDF (no, not sharing them), so they don’t occupy all those shelves in the bookcases anymore. The old ones had such fun articles in there. Building terrain, background stories, conversions, ideas. Minigames! Oh all those minigames in there, Orc tavern brawls, Dark Eldar skirmish games (with paper miniatures!), Bretonnian Jousting (with tents and jousting stand!). The ones at the end only had Jervis rambling about business stuff. Collector’s editions books. Limited Edition buildings. Blood Knights at 90 euro per 5 in finecast. Which is even worse than Restic. Pfffff.
It’s gone. That fun time I had with them in my youth is really gone, Paul Sawyer, Rick Priestley, Alessio Cavatore, Andy Chambers, and a whole bunch of other guys that made it the hobby it was. But the thing is, they aren’t gone. They all moved on to new pastures, and so did a lot of us. What I have left from Warhammer, 5 armies of 40k and 6 armies of Fantasy, is in boxes and bags, and occasionally it’ll be put up on a RoB board to play a game with a friend or my wife. I even sometimes grab a unit for old times sake and paint them up .I never got around to painting everything, especially in that 10,000 point Space Marine army and the 8000 point Empire army. But my hobby time, and budget, that’s going to Dropzone Commander, Warmachine, Dreadball, Infinity, X-Wing, Bolt Action, and all the other cool stuff that’s coming out in these times.
There, it again turned into a rant. Who knew? But while watching this show I was assembling a Retribution of Scyrah Battlebox, because my wife wants to try Warmachine with me. Games Workshop is truly no more for me.
R.I.P.
I wonder how DZC will compare to Planetfall…? Is 10mm the new 15mm?
Keep up the good work, I love the sound of the new backstage stuff coming in the pipeline.
loving th look of dropzone, need to get myself some 🙂
I abandoned buying GW a long time ago (make that over a decade), but now and then we enjoy a little game of Gorkamorka and would even dig out our Necromunda gangs. But my money goes elsewhere. Be it Dropzone Commander or Dust or X-Wing.
New IP for GW could be steam hammer – like moving WFB line years ahead into times where blackpoweder is used by all races – things are victorian and so on and so on …
Shiny new space game coming soon…. ain’t that nice?
Does anyone know if you can game outside cities in Dropzone?
i really miss the original white dwarf, hope gw will go back to a monzhly issue.
How The Grot Stole Christmas – limited edition novella from Black Library coinciding with the new Space Wolves release – written by C Z Dunn + Andy Smillie
(featuring Logan Grimnar as Santa Clawz)
“Every Wolf down in Wolfville, like Christmas a lot
But the Grot, who lived just north of Wolfville, did not!”
I’m sad the DZC big ship won’t be at Gen Con.
You should do a new backstage show! BoW does the apprentice!!
Did they announce anywhere who won the infinity stuff?
15mm scale 40K would be sweet, but that’s probably just me.
An awesome prize that starter set. Have really enjoyed this weekend of DZC coverage.
Not a joke btw. I would literally sell everything I own 40k wise and start again if it went 15mm a la Flames of War. That’s how to do Apocalypse sized battles for those that don’t dig Epic (6mm). Even plastic Titans would be practical at 15mm, or Thawks.
… Just saying.
Spent a few days recently going back through my old White Dwarf magasines (Dating back to ’95) and it was quite a novelty to see the changes the company has gone through over the years. I had forgotten just how many Specialist games GW had, and quite a few of them had their own dedicated magasine. The company really has narrowed it’s focus and I think they’re now suffering from tunnel vision.
I think specialist games still have a lot to offer. Blood Bowl and Space Hulk may have been limited but there’s no reason games like ‘Necromunda’ or ‘Mordheim’ couldn’t be as successful as many of GWs current competitors that are thriving by producing small-scale games.
I’ve just paid my KS pledge to ‘Infamy’; a game with huge support and promise, and not a million miles away from GW’s ‘Inquisitor’. A game that could have been the meeting point between 40k and Fantasy Flight’s licensed RPGs. The 40k universe is staggering in it’s scope and intricacy and extends far beyond simple battlefields yet it’s only properly explored in the novels from the Black Library.
And it’s through the Black Library that I think GW could have really found a new lease of life. The Horus heresy has been a shot in the arm to a publisher that was relying far too much on regurgitated plot lines. It wasn’t exactly “new” but it fleshed out the history beautifully and captured so much attention it gave rise to an entire range of miniatures and rule books.
But therein lies the problem. These new miniatures and books have been offered to us through Forge World. A branch of GW that has really outlived it’s purpose. When I first came across FW it produced large miniatures of a scale and detail that were beyond regular GW casting methods. The prices were mental but every mini you bought was a glorious (and rare!) centerpiece in your army. Certain tanks used to come with numbered certificates!! But GW has caught up with FW with it’s minis, both in size and quality. Why does my Baneblade double in price so I can simply have a different weapon?!
And why does an army of Horus heresy era Space marines cost me treble the price of the (already overpriced) regular chaps?!?! There is absolutely no reason for FW to be producing them. They’ve produced an entire range that even the die-hard enthusiasts balk at purchasing. I attempted to put together an army list that I could work towards buying and gave up halfway through. A standard squad of death Guard were costing me close to €100. A plastic (or even finecast) range through GW could have been amazing. Eighteen chapters to distinguish, the Mechanicum, Titans, the plethora of alien races the crusade encountered… (The beasts of Caliban – the opportunities for minis!)The list goes on. It’s such a wasted opportunity it makes my head spin! And far more viable than buying in an IP. The examples mentioned in the video (Star Wars, Halo) are extremely limited and would simply paint GW into more corners.
Great show! The apprenticeship is a brilliant idea. Could have been a dream job opportunity but I have already had too many childhoods. Somebody is going to have a lot of fun!
One is mine:)
Those Shattered Void ships look brilliant. I am definitely interested.
Just watched the Dropzone videos. Looks like a great game.
You guys made laugh very hard today. Thanks for that.
I’d love to see GW try something new. I don’t think that means a license. They’re fully capable of doing it themselves.
Don’t forget that, in addition to the loss of players and high prices, the policy changes that have driven away vendors ( both online and brick and mortar shops ) have also helped put GW in their current situation.
With the loss of those stores came a loss of people willing to push their product.
@warzan regarding what you said about advancing the 40k storyline. At the recent 40k open day at warhammer world that question was directly asked at one of the seminars and they answered honestly, they are happy with keeping the 40k universe where it is (they referred to it as two minutes to midnight) and that they have the ten thousand years of storyline to explore after the Horus heresy. So no the storyline will not be moving forward, it will just expand what’s already there. And that lead to another question, how do they explain new wargear or machinery being introduced into the fluff, they simply said, its not new at all, we (GW) just haven’t shown you that it was there, so even though its new to us, its meant to have already and always been there in there fluff. They said it’s a pretty big galaxy and that they haven’t scratched the surface of what’s in it.
Really happy I finally joined the Back Stage, great video!
Please no Warzone: Resurrection; my wallet can’t take it.
Ah Ha! I knew that space wolf model reminded me of something.
An old game from the early days of FASA’s renegade legion game called Circus Imperium.
Wikipedias explanation below pretty much sums the game up.
Circus Imperium
Circus Imperium was the fifth of the Renegade Legion board games published by FASA, but unlike the others in the series, this tongue-in-cheek game of chariot racing was played strictly for laughs. The game involved anti-grav chariots being pulled by carnivorous beasts, with the object of the game to defeat the other racers, usually by knocking them out of the race or getting them eaten by the monsters. Outcomes of player actions were often random and unpredictable, and players could get points for eliciting laughs or the loudest cheers from other gamers. Ral Partha produced a series of lead figures for the game, including chariots, senators and imperial guards.
Yes, GW needs a new plan.
I totally agree, Warren, 40K as a hobby appealed to me way more than the constant rule/stat changes. I’ve still half a mind to build Grey Knight (never was sure why they chose silver as a base color) and/or a Necron army, but the price is even more prohibitive than years back when I stopped playing during 4th edition.
The Shattered Void minis look great, and, Sam, there was a dogfight game called Silent Death out more than a decade ago. Much less “real” physics involved than other starship battle games at the time and a simple, single dice roll which determined not only whether a hit was made, but also the damage caused based on the skill of the gunner and weapon used.
Warmachine/Hordes is definitely taking away some of WH40K/WHFB’s player base. In the 100 mile radius around me more and more people playing Warmachine/Hordes and less and less of them playing WH40K/WHFB. GW’s games are out-pricing their fans– whom are switching to WM/H and other, less costly wargames. That and the rules/units are getting more and more wonky.
Loving all the dropzone coverage!
We live in interesting times…
The Shattered void stuff looks fantastic. Im very keen to see more on that one.
On dropzone commander, are the buildings card?
GW aren’t a company that cares about their games or their miniatures. By “company” I mean the people responsible for what GW does, there are undoubtedly people lower down who very much care, but they have no say. GW’s business model is designed around exploiting their IP, and it just so happens that the most lucrative way of exploiting that IP at the moment is in making miniatures for it.
I think it’s less likely that GW will introduce a new IP or license another IP, than it is they will look to exploit the existing IP in other ways.
You may want to have a look at this interesting video. In Buypainted’s opinion GW’s main product is in fact not games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovBkR1YtzbI
Hi guys all I have to say about dropzone commander prize is PICK ME PICK ME lol.
Now for GW I feel that there is main reasons for their drop in profit which are the following
1. Price/value – not only is their product ridiculously expensive but the value for money isn’t there anymore for example when I first started playing/collecting fantasy I could buy a box of dwarf hammers for about 45 bucks Australian dollars in that box I’d get 16 models I’d only need two to have a working unit now it’s 75/80 bucks Australian dollars for ten models and who can afford that when for 10 more bucks I can be playing like dropzone commander . So in my view value is just as important as price
Great review – Competition entry please!
I would prefer GW to change its top management rather than go bankrupt. It would be a damn shame for W40K IP to disappear into nothingness. I don’t like how GW handle stuffs as a company, but I really like W40K..
Think Games Workshop will soon have there backs against the wall, the sooner they admit it and start working with their consumer base, i.e. us. the sooner they can stop the slide. Personally I like the fact we can now choose, perhaps GW should embrace this and allow others some input into their IP, Lucas did it with Star Wars and he’s a control freak over it.
Have the rules and looks like a nice game, need to try it sometime. Right noe im a little torn about waiting to see what Planetfall or get Dropzone.
Models in Dropzone looks stunning with all that detail!
XLBS always fun to watch
GW will survive , but it takes more than a reversal of costs , it needs to come up with something new to bring the old gamer back in , which it has done with Forgeworld and there release of The Heresy era stuff. but thats still expensive.
IP wise , they need to either get a new IP , or build something, but it wont be star wars , as FFG have that tied up , with the RPG and incredibly popular X-Wing and now the Capital Ship game.
I wouldnt be surprised if there isnt a Skirmish game out for SW soon , with the new films coming out. Big battles in SW dont really occur in the ANH era , but a small skirmish game of Jedi and Sith might work for past eras , and a clone wars type would have appeal , but for me CW is pap!
I was about to write something about GW, but then I realized I don’t really care… I’d be kinda sad to see it go, and there are some fond memories but ultimately they lost me long ago.
Too many kickstarters! Looks like the credit cards gonna bulge even more. The new Dropzone Commander starter sets look awesome!
GW is a stock company. There are people investing and they expecht profit. When sales go done you rise prices. I don´t get the point behind that logic but they´re all doing it. So products get expensive and the sales drop even more.
The thing is, the investors want to see profits. GW should spend the next 3-4 years trying to consolidate a bit. Stabilize and analize the market a bit, to see where to invest with future. But with stock holders watching over your back you can´t do this. If you tell the investors they have to wait a few years for profit they run away. When sales go done they run away, too. So it´s quite a tricky situation for GW in the moment. And there have been wealthier companies that went done the tube because of that.
Generally it´s called free market economy ;-). And in my opinion this is what took the fun out of GW and lead to the prices we all complain about or pretend not to complain about :-).
Hey Lloyd what an idea! Mass Effect Skirmish game. That would be great. I´d like the guys from corvus belli do that. What great minis would that be. That would be simply amazing.
I love Warhammer 40k, but I never get really excited about a release, something I am truly excited about owning or experiencing with other hobby members.
I need some DZC!!!
Perhaps a skirmish game or board game that either could use or share miniatures with one of the core GW games would be my choice for GW. This would give both a new game for people to get into and also help sell their existing lines. Warhammer Quest is a good example, as is Mordheim. Necromunda not so much as there was very little cross over between that and 40k in terms of miniatures although something similar to the Inquisimunda fan made rules would be excellent allowing people to make small warbands of whatever race they want. Think Kill Team but with more of an RPG flavour. I imagine a racial starter set containing say 1 chaos champion, 2 chaos marines, a few cultists with various weapons and maybe a spawn or daemonhost. A similar set for Eldar would have a Warlock, 2-3 different aspect warriors, a couple of guardians and a Ranger. This could then help to make an easy transition into a small 40k army, especially once people decide they want more minis for their warband.
Personally I don’t think a license property is going to do much good for GW. None of the ones Lloyd rattled off are particularly appealing as a miniatures game, with the possible exception of Mass Effect. However even that is going to be a tough sell at anything above a skirmish game.
Gears of War is dead and has been for a long time. Besides that it lacks factions. Star Wars is in much the same boat, there’s only so far you can go with Rebels vs Imperials. There are no other credible forces around in the universe to make an interesting third or fourth faction. Hell, even LCG has to dip into “Bounty Hunters” and “Smugglers”.
Maybe they could do Game of Thrones, I know a few people who might be attracted to something along those lines. Or perhaps Dune? There’s plenty of factions, potential special characters, a thrilling narrative, however I have heard the Herbert estate are a bitch to deal with.
However I think their best bet is either going to be developing a new IP or trying to revitalize one of their existing ones in some way. Bring back Battlefleet Gothic perhaps? Or Epic (10mm Space Marines would get me to prise open my wallet). Set it in the 30th Millennium, give us access to the primarchs, let us field the Emperor himself. They could even bring back Warmaster (although I don’t know how well it would sell, maybe not as well as a 40k equivalent) and I’d definitely give it a look over.
I don’t know where they could go with a new IP, but they can’t do a worse job than some of the others that are popping up these days. Mantic’s offering leaves a lot to be desired (I mean really, ‘The Corporation’? could they get any more boring and generic?) and I gotta admit I’m less than impressed with what I’ve seen of the fluff behind Beyond the Gates of Antares so far.
Damn comment section needs an edit button.
It wasn’t Lloyd that rattled off the possible IP’s but Warren. My bad.
For me, the biggest problem GW has is that higher prices lead to lower sales, which lead to higher prices to cover costs and so on and so on… A downward spiral accelerated by a thriving secondhand market for 40k and Fantasy minis on eBay.
Then into the gap come outstanding games like Dropzone Commander, Deadzone, Dust Battlefield and so on and so on…!
If GW had any idea about how to serve the needs (and wallets) of gamers they would have twigged this long ago, but i suspect it’s too late for them now.
We saw a great number of people switching System away from GW locally for about a year now. Right now it is easier to get a player for X-Wing or Warmachine than for 40k. Fantasy has been dwad around here for 3-4 years.
Pretty happy to see new plastic starters for DZC!
All this Dropzone talk. I guess I’ll have to take a look.
I want a starter set!
I’d like to see GW bring back epic level gaming and create a whole ‘level of warfare’ scene (as discussed recently in the blogs) whereby you can have a game that involves conquering planets or even sectors, then has space battles, then has epic level warfare and finally 28mm war games. All using involved systems and rules and points so that one can campaign in various levels that then lead to points variations in other levels. I do also feel they need to address their price policies. I can buy the whole of the dropzone game including scenery and rulebook for less then one knight? GW needs to be, or at least have, a pocket money game again! Make killzone available to the kids, even if it means you can buy individual marines for £2 each. At the moment there’ll be no new young blood coming in so as the oldies like me move on (in whatever sense) their customer base will continue to diminish. Personally I’m moving over to warzone 🙂 anyone want to buy a daemon army?
Looking at the way people are spending money these days, it would not surprise me in the slightest if GW decide to do some kind of skirmish game to try and bring in audiences that are currently playing mercs/infinity etc with some kind of view or path towards 40k or a bigger licensed game but I am no expert…..
… by the way nobody seems to have mentioned how to enter the competition?
Really liked this Episode! Keep it coming 😀
White Dragon have been the Brindie company I’ve paid the least attention to, but after the artwork they recently put up on their FB page and now these minis, that’s about to change.
I wonder where this “hype” about the financial issus of GW come from. They still made a lot money…a lot more then only a few years back…and no one even thought about something down the line like this actual “the end is near” hype in those years. And back than the competition was much weeker than it is today…and the economy in general was much better….and still the earnings are on paar with 2010 and 2011…and way better than 2009 and before…just not as great as the last two exeptional years. It looks to me that nowadays it is normal to overdramatize nearly everything. Question the design desicions and the amount of high price releases ect…but plz do not try to analyse a companys financial report…there are enough highly paid individuals who have much more expertise and insite in this…and still can not get it right…so plz stick to the hobby side and dont blow in that hype horn like so many others. Thx!
They lost £11 million in revenue and almost 10% in sales in one year, and they did this despite an aggressive release schedule of traditionally popular products. This is more than legitimate grounds to be concerned about where they’ll be in another year if things don’t change.
Nothing against beeing concerned…I only think that those blind shots at what this or that in the financial report could mean are mostly pretty far fetched…but that is no wonder…nearly no one has the backround to do better ( for Example: is a 10% drop in sales after 2 exeptional years so unusual? Or is it a normal consolidation thing that happens quite often in a narrow market? Why where the last 2 years so exeptional? ect….who can really answer those rather simple questions)…so I think we should stick to what we know something about…it should be concern about the quality of the products…the design…the price…and all things hobby…there we can make comments about likes and dislikes ect…because there we are at home…not at the financial side.
GW will have to something major to get me back into their hobbies. I love their old ones (Epic, Necromunda and Mordhiem), all of which have benefitted from GW stepping away and letting the fans tweak the rules.
can’t wait for more Wolsung!
Bit late watching this, some great stuff there guys, love the look of the Void fighters but KS is killing my wallet. Another great compo too :).
GW do indeed need something new to build their sales, but they also need to look back at the IP’s that they currently own. Whilst Warren’s comments about specialist games (Mordheim etc) is valid just look at how quickly Space Hulk sold out for how much it could improve sales figures in the short term for them. They have shown some flexibility in the past and I think it is a pity that they have narrowed down so much. I didn’t watch last weeks show, so I can’t comment on what was said then, but perhaps it’s time to go completely outside the box and outside their own four walls. GW have the biggest network on games stores in the country and whilst they want to sell their own produce, if they want to survive perhaps they should make better use of the store network and sell (shock horror) other people’s stuff. Whilst some games are in fairly direct competition with WFB and 40K, other games and figure ranges are certainly not (Flames of War springs to mind). There is a market out there for these games that doesn’t imped on GW IPs. If people cross the threshold to purchase something for say Flames of War, they may well pick up GW brushes and paints to paint their new miniature. I know that I now try to make use of the new GW store in my home town for paints etc, simply to try and keep a gaming store presence.
On a completely different note, Hawk have a great product in DZC and I’d love to see them grow in stature within the Gaming community.
DC looks like very interesting game.
I found very interesting video about some high rank manager about Games workshop strategy and why is failing – this part is what they selling – their product is … wait for it……
Games Workshop Hobby! what ? they sell Collectables models as well not a game!
link here 10 min of very interesting speculation about GW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovBkR1YtzbI
great show again, and send over does nice prizes
I may have missed this earlier but apparently Matt Ward is no longer with GW. At least according to his Linked in profile. Also he has a new blog which appeared shortly after his departure last May.
Dropzone looks like fun and so easy to transport all the armies in one nice sized bag. I would to tkae my airbrushes and some oil washes to them.
Did you say Dropzone freebies 😉
Well an additional reason to be come a backstager, win your pledges for free, some times you could win 7 starter boxes, and now an extra 2 Player box. Just figure out if you win both, my godness such a great prize, haha. Also about the xlbs it is nice and great as the weekend et so What moré you giban ask for…
Hmm only a thing, playing vídeos of Games course they Will be great too.
boom! dropzone starter! come to daddy!
Bring back Mordheim! Also, you guys are amazing I got into infinity cause of you! Now I’m being tempted by drop zone!
btw, I completly disagree with the license solutions you propose. 40K is by far the best universe in wargame at the moment. I say that and I do not buy GW anymore, because 40K is just too big for me.
GW has the Inquisitor universe, the eldar, etc, they already have all they need. they jsut need to find a new format to come back in the game.
Star Wars, Halo, etc…. won t be a solution, like LoTR wasnt either. they need their own IP, no someone else.
starter set… gimme XD
As always great show gents
Star wars would more than fill the gap The Hobbit will leave GW. Unlike the Tolkien movies, it can continue for decades beyond the movies too.
Gimme a Dropzone Commander box! 😀
does any else feel that GW conciders itself a hobby unto itself, more important than the rest of the hobby?
GW needs Mordheim not only as a skirmish game, but as an entry level product. Warbands don’t require many models and could eventually lead to players expanding into full WHFB armies as they pick up pieces to have other options available to them… it’s a good way to introduce the game to people who may to want to drop hundreds on an army just to find out if they like playing or not…
Well imagine if GW allowed somebody like Fantasy Flight to write rules for a skirmish game based on 40k or Fantasy. All GW would have to do is to continue making models they already have. Different rules/ missions could be officially be made by other companies. If they were crap them nobody could give out to GW about it.
Great xlbs as always. When I first went into GW many years ago a member of staff gave me a half hour demo game of 40k. I then went on to spend alot of money on GW product. How can a store with 1 member of staff hope to give demos etc and get people into the hobby as well running a store.
Oh yeah! Another good show guys. If I was 15 years younger I would go for that apprenteship. 🙁
http://www.beastsofwar.com/shattered-void/check-painted-ship-white-dragons-shattered-void/ 😀
Looks delicious. Thinking of picking up the 2 player starter set.
Shattered Void…..I picked up lots of miniatures for this game at Salute…..they are stunning….beautiful resin cast…excellent designs….I’ve even got that 28mm pilot. Still awaiting the rules and the Kickstarter…..if the range continues to keep this quality it will be one to watch.
Its taken me 3 hours to watch around 12 minutes of this video and now I’m giving up. What’s going on with the buffering?
Love Dropzone!!
Good things, bad things.
Nice to hear about the new Backstage shows. While I think that backstage was already a great value, it’s always nice to get more. 🙂
GW should reboot Blood Bowl. Imagine all the new plastic sculpts that could be released to cover both fantasy and 40k models. How about plastic terrain for custom pitches for each faction. It is a beloved game that could get a old players back and a new generation to discover it. What a mind blowing Kickstarter it would be too.
Dropzone week was fun, nice to see it didn’t leak all the way into this. But starter sets are fun!
Price is the first thing GW need to address, they have become stupidly high and a major reason why so many have turned their backs on 40K and Fantasy. It used to be that if you spoke to someone outside of the hobby about GW the first thing they would say would be “that’s the nerdy game with the toy soldiers isn’t it?”
If you speak to them now they say “that’s the really expensive nerdy game with the toy soldiers isn’t it?”
For years now people have been saying over and over again, its getting too expensive and the pro GW folk have brushed it off with phrases like “Haters gonna hate!” or “Just buy less and stop complaining!” but the problem is we all have started buying less, if anything at all. We’ve found better game systems, better miniatures and we’ve moved on. I’d love to be able to field a good sized 40K army but once I add in the cost of miniatures, Codex, supplements, data slates and main rulebook I’m already weighing it up and thinking I could get a PS4 for less than that, with games.
I would like to believe that a lot of GW’s lost sales would return if only they would bite the bullet and drop their prices, even the people who have walked away still think about 40K and Fantasy with fond memories, its GW they hate for driving them out of the games they loved. I’ve seen the kids looking in the window at the cool toy soldiers on display in my local, only to be whisked away by their parents when they see the prices.
Create new skirmish level games for both systems that are expandable, bring back a some of the roleplaying elements that are sadly missing today, start with a war band starter set and add to it as you game, eventually you’ll have around the golden 2000 points mark and then you invest in the big rule book and start playing epic battles. They could use the current data slates to supply rules for building your war band, start with a box of X and then add to it a few models at a time, each model or box of models come with their own Dataslate to download. This would create a game that’s easy to get into and easy to grow without the cold sweat inducing initial price tag that puts so many people off.
I don’t like the wolf sled, but GW really does have systemic and terminal problems related to corporate governance and choices – the biggest red flag in the preamble was boasting that they don’t have a marketing department or do any market research, right after proclaiming that they know for certain who their demographic is. This is heading for the iceberg with both eyes shut. Right now they’re applying to enforce the idiotic sales measures from the US in Australia, but the regulatory body is likely to toss them out.
Anyway, DZC stuff looks hot, I like the PHR but those resistance battle buses are awesome
I think GW missed its chance. Instead of the big 6/7th ed push being rules tweaks and fliers they should have stepped back, really revamped the rules for the next 20 odd years and put the same release schedule in to get everyone codices for the new rules. Same rules with ever more expensive models won’t cut it anymore, fresh start like Lloyd said. Never mind, plenty of tabletop fun to be had with lovely dropzone starter boxes though, eh? Eh? Eh? 😉
So GW… I think the first thing for everyone to accept is that the world has changed, there is more competition – much of it really strong – and GW isn’t going to be able to get back to its dominant position whatever it does.
But I think there are things they could do to recover and rebuild over the long term.
I think buying another IP is definitely not the way to go. It’s expensive, unpredictable and fairly pointless. GW have brilliant IPs that they own. The problem is their business model, and a new IP with the same business model isn’t going to help. A new IP with a better business model will be riskier than using one of their own IPs with a better business model.
So what should it be?
Obviously, prices have to come down. But alone, that wont’ be enough. After all, quite a bit of the competition is as expensive as GW these days, or nearly.
They need to make fans feel involved and valued. Which means engaging with them honestly, discussing their plans with them, addressing issues which have been complained about for years, etc. It also means designing games, rules and release schedules around what works for fans.
I don’t buy the idea that skirmish games aren’t profitable for GW. 10 years ago you could have argued that they canibalised other GW sales and encouraged GW hobbiests to stop playing (and buying) WFB/40K. Even if this is a real danger, it doesn’t help GW to have those same customers go their competitors. If you’re going to lose a 40K player to a skirmish game, then make sure it’s to a skirmish game you sell!
I think there’s lots of scope for turning skirmish players into 40K players too. The way I’d do it is with campaigns, which is also how I’d address complaints about the universe/story line being static.
To be honest, I think they’re right to keep the timeline as it is, as changing it risks damaging so much of what is great about it. But it’s big enough to accomodate sections that are open to change. So, announce that they will focus on one sector for the next 2 years of releases. Launch the campaing with a splash, some character models for several factions, an exciting background codex and detailed setting… And then let the players shape that setting.
You could vary the scale of campaigns. So instead of a sector, you could have a 6 month campaign set in a hive city during the ork invasion of Armageddon. Totally open ended – the hive could stand or fall depending upon the actions of the players. Throughout the campaign you could release all sorts of upgrade packs (like the Black Templar sprue) encouraging people to collect new armies that although useable elsewhere are specifically designed for the campaign. You could add lots of campaign specific units which are cool, but which are not ‘tournament legal’ / not of great interest to competitive players outside of the campaign.
What’s more, such a campaign could be rolled out after your 6 month cycle of Necromunda re-release. During the Necromunda period you brought in loads of new players who bought loads of your awesome new plastic gangs. They built loads of amazing new hive city terrain that you created especially for the game. All of which can now be incorporated into your Armageddon hive city campaign.
GW need to show the players that they care about them, and that they are passionate about the game, not just profits.
Dropzone Commander is getting all my funds for the time being. I may consider playing Warhammer again, it was the game that sparked my interest after all. However, I would rather support Hawk in their inspired efforts.
Adding in my 5c from the backstage GW thread:
What’s wrong with GW? What’s in their recent numbers? I’ve written a few articles on it, for frontlinegaming.org.
The cause I think, is the period where they took loads of revenue, but didn’t make any money. They’ve failed in online. And they’ve failed to recognise that they have customers, and what their customers want.
But in short, I think it’s three things:
1. Failure on price. The “core” of an army, isn’t achievable! Subsidise the cost of tactical marines, etc. Put one, core unit, at just above final costs and limit your takings to 5% on it. If they launch a new license, like star wars/mass effect/halo what prices are they going to charge? Currently in Australia, it’s $62 for 10 Chaos Space Marines. It’s $14 for 5 cultists. It’s $65 for 10 tactical marines (equivalent to 36 pounds, rather than the 25 pounds it costs in the UK).
The starter kit doesn’t get you in. There’s no tournament, or play aside from with friends for someone with cultists, chosen and a helbrute. So it’s not actually starting you in the hobby. Not in a sustainable way.
2. Failure to deliver their product.
GW thinks their product is miniatures. That’s because they don’t understand the difference between a product and monetisation. The product is what the customer, wants to buy, and the monetisation is how you make cash off it. For example, sometimes the product is an iPhone, and sometimes it is a “look”. Apple’s monetisation is from the app store, the itunes store, and sales of the product. They need to make sure their product is both a great phone, and a great “look”. Imagine a second, if Apple told you they sell phones, and therefore they could sack Jonathan Ive and save all the money they spend on design for other uses, like improving signal by 1%.
GW is that hypothetical Apple. They piss off their customers, because they are (now) overly focused on what delivers the money, literally. Balanced rules (which most of us notice, as just less frustrating games) have value. Because if you don’t enjoy the game, you don’t play the game, and if you don’t play the game there’s no reason to buy more product to support that hobby. Not everyone who buys GW products is a gamer. But given the amount of money they make on rulebooks, dataslates, codexes, formations, etc you can bet that a fair proportion is. Also, as has been argued before, most stores will admit that gamers purchase more products than painters. Let’s be honest, painters aren’t just going to collect GW models. They are unlikely to buy GW paints on price or quality.
3. They failed at the internet.
GW is generating a heap of haterade for themselves with their restrictive rules for retailers, their jerk-like moves (nobody but us can sell these products online), etc. It’s crazy. If it’s cheaper for me to buy your products from the US or UK and SHIP THEM TO ME TWO AT A TIME then there’s something wrong with your pricing. Rather than trying to cut me off, sell me the products. GW here, is failing to realise some of the key learnings from “The Goal”: if you are making profit selling your products, and you have a decent margin, and the constraint isn’t manufacturing, supply, or anything else, then you are “giving up” money you could otherwise get by lowering your prices, for what?
Instead of being negative (attacking FLGS) they should have brought in a good loyalty program, which extends to GW stores and their mail/internet orders. I mean, if they want to get sales going through their online store, that’s simply the best approach. Forcing your collaborators to shut their online stores means you’ll get a little more online sales, but most of them will probably go through ebay or go to a competitor.
When they pulled the trigger on those online-only stores, they didn’t see a lift in their online revenue.
This is all massively characteristic of a company stuck in the past. It’s the same tactics that fail the rights holders of movies and music. If you prevent your customers from buying easily at what THEY see as a reasonable price for your product, then they won’t be your customers. And upping your prices, and refusing to discount might increase the perceived value of your product, but it’s probably also causing MASSIVE churn.
Yeah, I’m spending big on DzC. It’s a much better investment. Uptake has been slow here, but a lot of folks have been waiting for the plastic starters. There’s a heap of guys locally who’ve contacted me to run them some starter games of DzC, because they are going to pick it up when the plastic starters launch.
Lloyd I think you have a good point. I was shocked at the revenue they still take in the GW stores, so how the f$%#sk does it make any sense to reduce their takings? You’ve got sunk 5 year leases on a bunch of those stores, that you have to support. ZZZZZZZ, what kind of moron accountants did they get to come up with that plan?
Wasn’t the Landraider a golden-age farming tractor STC, it make sense that there would be a chariot that could have been a plough
Shattered Void ships look great. As to GW they really need to do something away from their core IP. Space skirmish, a decent mech game… how about buying up the Battletech rights and doing something decent with that. The advantage of a game like that is that and kid could buy a single mech that they liked and use it in a game – and then build up accordingly. Fantasy and 40K are not pocket money games anymore and GW really need one.
There are lots of ground battles in Battlestar Galactica: The first Cylon War
You dont see much about it in the series, but there are a few scenes where you see Cylon Centurions fighting through urban rubble with an basestar hovering above them.
That being said, a BSG spaceship would be awesome too. But GW isn’t that smart, they will stick thier heads into the ground and continue to squeeze the Warhammer IP to the death.
Just hope that GW doesn’t make a grab for DZC !!!
Hawk’s future looks bright , exciting times for them .
I don’t think you have to worry.
There’s two things GW might feasibly do. The first is directly compete with DzC and release a dropship based 10mm 40k game, which might in fact drive more people to play DzC.
The other thing GW might do, is try and acquire Hawk. I don’t know what Hawk’s structure is, but as long as they haven’t sold out the majority share to venture capital, Dave can just say “No thanks”. Even if GW did buy Hawk, it would cost them a fair whack of cash and that might just gear Dave up enough to launch his next idea. Honestly though, I can’t see Dave selling.
Dropzone Commander ROCKS!!!!!!!
The gaming industry is in major flux. Small shops are dealing with too many product SKUs and the large manufacturers are seeing to many small producers just getting by. The large producers cannot complete with the mobility of the smaller lines while the opposite is true of production capability. Kickstarter has been a boom for many but, it will probably run it’s course in time. This may cause many of the small lines to be bought out by the more established companies and the lines will go away or will be small aspects of a larger catalog.
Between Drop Zone Commander and Infinity, think its time to get rid of my old unused GW models and try these awesome looking games. I think the apprenticeship is a fantastic idea, and chance for a young person to learn some awesome skills. Sure it will work out well for them and for Bow too, fair play!
A really interesting debate chaps – and one I seem to be having increasingly often with people these days. Couldn’t agree more with the sentiments widely expressed here – GW just need another game and a new IP. They’re never going to return to the days of specialist games (that’s fine we don’t need you for scratching that itch anymore GW) but goodness knows they need something different. I just hope for the sake of the wider hobby as a whole that they do it!
I still think the starter set is awesome value. – I’ve bought 2 already for the core of both my armies.
very entertaining xlbs
I need to rearrange my viewing schedule, I’m basically one week behind
I’ve never been into 10mm but Dropzone Commander’s Minis are just gorgeous. I’d love to get some of those! 😀
DROPZONE 🙂
Have really tried to avoid getting into another game but the Dropzond stuff looks great and having just got into the Falling Sky’s TV series the idea of creating my own version of the 2nd Mass to fight the Scourge may just be too appealing to resist 🙂
I want one.
Awesome as usual
A Beasts of War traineeship sounds like a great opportunity for the right kind of person. I’m sure it will be a great learning experience given the volume and quality of content you put out.
I might have applied myself if I weren’t living too far away to make it work.
My son and and I have been looking into dropzone commander so I enjoyed to two part special very much.
I think GW will struggle to recapture the monopoly of the market they had because they pushed away a lot of business with their attitude & price hikes personally they should bring back the cheaper plastic boxes. Games wise a new EPIC &/or h’quest spacehulk but I don’t think that will turn the company around. If the management talk to the worker that may help with new suggestions?
I do not like the direction GW is headed. Their product is becoming too fracking
expensive. I am aware that wargaming is an expensive hobby, there are limits.
I think one very large issue with GW is that they spent loads of money continuing the LotR/Hobbit licence and then failed to do anything really innovative with it. A licence of this magnitude would only be a viable proposition if the company really work with it to maximise retail potential.
Coverage in White Dwarf has been nigh on non-existent. Releases have been limited to a few new characters from Desolation of Smaug, and many of those are still being released in Finecast. Time has shown that Finecast was an epic fail and does nothing but undermine customer confidence.
There was at least potential for a DoS box with scenery, Elves, Spiders, and a new set of sculpts for Bilbo and the Dwarves for skirmish battles in Mirkwood.
The new plastic figures in the range are really beautiful. I just recently plonked down too much money for Legolas and Tauriel and the level of detail is just gobsmackingly high. The poses are dynamic, and for a collector or gamer, the product is very good.
One can only hope the development team have been sweating on a revised version of the Battle of the Five Armies game to be released for Christmas this year.
Giving the LotR range a little more love wouldn’t hurt either.
Killing off the DIY hobby section of the games (40k and WHF too) hasn’t helped either. The range of scenery outside of the 40k IP is slim to say the least. I always enjoyed reading the DIY articles in the rulebooks. They were certainly more exciting than a brief paragraph saying “Buy our stuff”.
Nobody has bottomless pockets or wallets these days. GW need to reevaluate their pricing structure and retail model to lower prices and drive up volume sales, thereby increasing revenue. Increased volume means more people playing the game, and encouraging others to do so. It’s a simple formula that they seem to have completely forgotten in their growth to the corporate behemoth they have become.
Ok guys here is my 2p no the 40K issue. Expand on the 30K licence, spend the time effort and resources Coherently patching over the plot holes that the fan base are expected to just “accept it and don’t look at it”.
Sort out the problems caused by lazy writing from the early days, Re-establish the cannon proper, and with very little investment (comparatively speaking) they can restore the legitimacy of the product, while fashioning a level of clarity that would allow the 40k world to move forward in an interesting direction rather than just stagnate.
This in turn would make the introduction of some of the more outlandish addition of late far more palatable. Which in turn would then be rationally acceptable, as opposed to the good old “cos we say so”
The point raised by the guys that GW is the market leader so “we’ll do what we want” is most of the problem, they have become lazy and complacent with the products. As a result they have way too many irons in the fire already with out adding more just for quick profit figures. If they are to remain the dominant force in the industry then they need to play the long game and greatly improve the existing licence
End of rant