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Weekender XLBS: What Can You Do When Your Game Dies?
October 8, 2017 by warzan
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Happy Sunday !!!!
Whooo Hooo First 😀 …… Yes now I’d better watch the show … It’s sort of cheating but I donit care 😛
To the victor go the spoils beardragon14 🙂
ahh you are a good man craigwrdouglas 🙂
Is Warren turning into a creationist?
Well his donosaur picture came from creationist literature …… He said he wasn’t a “Young Earther” but *looks from side to side* doth he protesteth too much ????
Joking aside for a moment (yup I know lol) the whole soft tissue thing in fossels does leave me scratching my head… The way I see it these are the options…
1) Soft tissue isn’t there and it’s a mistake or contamination (I would say the most likely at this stage and all is right in the world)
2) It is there and there is a mechanism where preservation can last 10’s of millions of years (my preference right here so we get the big guys back!)
3) Something has went wrong with how we have measured geological time (can’t be this right?!?! This is dogs and cats living together type of upset)
🙂
I’d tend to go with 2 ……. I live in Australia and Ayre’s Rock is suppossedly the compacted remains of the rocks and sand that were deposited at the end of some glacier that existed millions and millions of years ago (As a continent we have (save Antartitca we pretty much have the oldest surface on the planet, due to it being away from plate boundaries for so long, top soil and large mountains erroded away to nothing….. our tallest Mountain would only rate as a bloody hill anywhere else world the shear time that it woould have taken for this to happen means that I don’t think our geological time scale is wrong.
Now I have a science background (I know I don’t act like it but I come to Beasts of War to be an irresponsible big kid) but mainly in Physics, but even then the information that we get from from radioactive dating (it isn’t just carbon …. but that is used for most biological specimens) would seem to fit our current scientific model.
I tried to find a piece of information a vaugely recall about biological matter being extracted from Lignite (Brown coal) in Victoria (Australia) about 10 or so years ago , but came up empty handed.
I think option 2) really is the most likely. I wouldn’t get your hopes up about cloning though if they have blood cells though ….. Red blood cells don’t have any DNA ….. bugger 🙁 . It is still theoretically possible though that some cell may have somehing , so there is always hope 🙂
On a side note the area in Queensland where I live during the week isn’t far (in Australian terms) from one of the Queensland Fossil fields and I was speaking to girl who worked in the digs for one of the Universities, and there is so much new stuff and new information that we are discovering all the time, that no way can you say our knowledge of dinosaurs are cut and dried.
I enjoyed the topic anyway … no imagination that Justin … sigh
Nope more of a re-creationist! 10 years man and they’ll have those big beasties back and working on our construction sites!
But only if “we spare no expense” 😉
I suppose you can’t turn into creationist as that would require some sort of evolution from a previous standpoint which would make you believe in evolution and therefore you couldn’t be a creationist as they believe you would have started out as a creationist as your God intended and would never have the idea if evolution in the first place….
Anyway. Aren’t crocodiles technically dinosaurs?
Nope closest living species we have are…. Dun dun dunnn…. Birds! 🙁 not got quite the same gravitas though!
@warzan You might find this interesting
https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/new-genome-research-illuminates-bird-crocodile-evolution
From the article. “Don’t let the apparent physical differences deceive you: Millions of years ago, birds and crocodiles were one species, called an archosaur.
With the genomic data for birds and crocodiles available, researchers are trying to reconstruct the archosaur genome. Generating a genome is a far cry from growing a creature, but the jury is still out on whether having a dinosaur genome could eventually lead to growing a dinosaur as in the film “Jurassic Park.”
As they say, more than one way to skin a cat lol
I don’t know @warzan it depends on the bird
https://futurism.com/cassorwary-australias-velociraptor/
I will forever wonder how the hell you guys live on that continent of terror, and be so f*****g laid back lol
It’s gotta be the beer right?
It certainly helps. ;- ) …I have come across Cassorwaries in a national park up north ….. I went back to my car ….. I really don’t trust them and they are the only native animal, (crocs, tai-pans etc) that really freaks me out
crocs/gators aren’t they older than dinosaurs as well as turtle’s?
PFJ for the win!
@lancorz thanks for the Office Space cut-away, yeah….so now if you could just go ahead and keep the guys on topic that’d be great *drinks coffee*
@thisisazrael if you want to do that broken ice with the cracked earth paint you have in the studio do it first before you prime. Wait for it to dry, prime and then paint the big fella. I would always spray prime grey, that will give you a flat enough base to ink the cracks with a blue and brush on white
some Kingdom out already @warzan I have King Ezekiel already, and other things…. watch this space ^^
Congratulations 3 very worthy golden button winners there, @warzan I love the idea of a review, but maybe you could throw up some honorable mentions. We have fantastic button winners every week, but some awesome projects just miss out.
“one elephant couldn’t drag a 50 ton rock, how about 2 elephants carrying it between them on a bit of creeper, hung under the dorsal guiding feathers” You’re on I’ll order some dinosaurs from antediluvian miniatures to add to the Zulu force for the next game of Rorke’s Drift 😉 but the British get Doug mcClure and Peter Cushing.
African or Indian elephant?
I don’t know th……..aaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Deal lol! Horns of the triceratops baby!
Loving @warzan‘s history,
or is that ‘Crypto-history’?
… Crypt-history?
… Cryp- history? ( almost there…)
… Crap history! Nailed it!
Loving @warzan‘s crap history!
lol
I am trying! … Very trying 😉
cryptohistozoolilogical more like lol
@avernos legend sir thank you!
Happy Sunday, woohoo, great to hear about the 40k Knights project again! Can’t wait to see that, Justin that Guild Ball team looks great
I’ve been really impressed with them mate! Hopefully not long till we get the film’s out 🙂
@sexyfurious (formally know as @brennon)
I’ve noticed that since becoming ‘Sexy Furious’, you’ve stopped wearing your glasses. Is that to bring out the sexy or the fury in your eyes? 😉
Btw, Happy Sunday
Wait until he starts blue steel’n behind us 😉
I think I could handle that, just as long as Ben doesn’t try to take his undies off over his head………
he doesn’t wear any that’s why the camera is always close up on his face 😉
I think Warcradle on this site posted that anything to do with Halo that they found had to be immediately destroyed
Correct. We have deleted all Halo related assets that have been found so far.
What to do when your game dies… Play 40k/30k, as you should have been in the first place 😛
Lol remember the wheels of karma spin @deaddave
Actual footage of Liddle Warren & Tiny Lloyd?
Actually tickled me something shocking, do love some instant karma! 😀 Az
Correct answer is play 30k, not this new arcade-40k we have 🙂
I have to admit, I haven’t even tried 8th, quite happy in Horus heresy land 😛
Happy Sunday!!
My parents told me my games hadn’t died, but they’d gone to a place where games can run about freely in the sun being played with constantly!
There was a recent program on tv where they found remains of a boat buried near the pyramids and a written account on papyrus. They used boats to ferry the stone from the quarry. They built a replica boat to try it out.
I saw a cool (but very unlikely) theory reacently where they took that a step further and built a huge tower of water to float the block up the side of the pyramid and into situ. Had lockgates and everything. But it seems the water pressures would be astronomic to do it.
The best theory to date I’ve seen is the internal ramp idea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques#Jean-Pierre_Houdin.27s_.22internal_ramp.22_hypothesis
Least amount of energy wastage involved, and pretty elegant solution.
They announced a few days back that they have found the first papyrus/paprika/platypus evidence showing the blocks were floated down river from a quarry
@bennu sorry didn’t see you comment before I posted
We all know it was the aliens with their transporter beams!
@warzan the water tower/gate theory has some credibility. They have found large traces of water residue inside the pyramids despite the fact it couldn’t have gotten in there with traditional theory’s.
they used the same thing tesla found/invented ? @warzan
As for Events, maybe Beasts of War can learn lessons from RaspberryPi and the RaspberryRamJams.
RaspberryRamJams are community RaspberryPi events. They declare an events, and RaspberryPi puts it onto a map (Google based).
Maybe Beasts of War can do something similar, to support all games. I can go on and put a ‘Pin’ (colour coordinated of course) event anywhere, declaring game system, etc.
Sure it is a lot of work but I think it could be so useful for everyone
I agree, it will be looked into @minigiant
@warzan I looked up a link, for yourself and everyone else to further expand upon what I am getting at: https://www.raspberrypi.org/jam/
@warzan , if the Pyramids of Giza blow your mind look up Sudanese Pyramids. Fascinating stuff 🙂
I imagine the reason we built pyramids is that even a kids playing with blocks we see it is the shape that doesn’t fall down!
(puts on lapsed archaeologist hat- a fedora, naturally)
If I remember the last thing I read on it the theory goes these are actual tombs of a Sudanese dynasty of Pharaohs, or a branch of the Sudanese kingdoms married into by a scion of the Egyptian dynasts….
The only experience I have with ‘dead games’ are Warmaster and Epic. Both still have huge fan groups on forums and Facebook . There are companies producing proxies in Epics case and there are enough 10mm models in Warmaster’s case out there to continue playing without having to spend silly money on original GW models. Shapeways also have some excellent stuff though it is expensive. I recently came across Minihammer which is 9th Age played in 10mm using half scales for bases and measuring and seems to have a good following as well
I think a key to games living on is they kinda needed to be successful at some point for them to stand any chance. Otherwise you need the resources and skills of a company to try and drive it there.
Agreed. I was wondering if this is just a sci-fi/ Fantasy wargame thing. I suppose my thinking is once you have the figures for historical games you don’t have to worry about IP settings etc as they can be used for any system you want after you have them. Sometimes a bit of re basing might be called for but that is about as far as it goes
Great point! @thisisazrael was making a point to me as well that boardgames don’t really suffer this either.
@torros @warzan I agree with settings such as historical or as Warren mentioned, high fantasy, it’s really much easier to maintain a game due to the miniature availability. Specific IPs make it much much harder but I think Warren was really right about approaching companies early to show the interest is still there and you might get lucky.
Board games are definitely a separate entity. I think that the general feeling is that once a board game is out it’s going to be unsupported. Even expansions are really considered separate from the core game in terms of maintenance. Getting FAQs, updated rules or tweaks are even very rare due to the whole “everything in one box” format.
My GW fantasy figures have certainly got a lot more re-use than my GW 40k models in other systems.
I have had to speak to Microsoft in respect software that we were using from a company that they had acquired and they weren’t interested in developing further or continuing to sell – They were happy to grant us a perpetual licence to use it for as long as we wanted on an as is basis and we got a response pretty quickly (a day or 2). I don’t know the situation regarding game IP however.
Actually I think @dignity was onto something with his superceded and deprecated editions comment.
The game that stands out to me has been Necromunda. GW expelled it from the house to the kennel at the end of the garden many years ago, since when it has been lovingly maintained by a very caring community that have kept rules and other aspects fresh. It’s only in the last few months when trawling through their archives for IP to make money from that GW noticed the interest in the game and brought it back into the house.
The same thing is happening with old editions of 40k and WHF.
What does it take? A few motivated individuals able to organise themselves into a community, open to others and with a web presence that other like minded individuals can find and join up with.
I wonder how many games out there are exclusively community supported at the moment?
I wonder if games falling away and not getting community support are mostly the ones from KS and these games having their 10 minutes of fame.I guess it’s hard to tell which ones are kept going after the pledges arrived. I presume some companies deliver the product then think about the next KS rather than establishing the game further. I suppose the next question would be how many of these games are actually played once they have arrived with the backers to gain support in the first place . All the games I have seen community supported are ones that were pretty successful in the first place over a number of years and as Warren mentioned earlier already have a strong internet presence. Would Necromunda, Mordheim,Epic and Warmaster survived without the internet?
This is the reason I’ve given up on KS new systems with loads of minis; the exceptions were systems (Mercs) or extensions (DFC) with established communities. Although the Mercs models are mostly used in Recon…
…which as a boardgame can sit on the shelf and be pulled out whenever.
I like the look of Minihammer. That’s right up my street, not least as I’ve just flocked up (as it were) a 2’x3′ board.
@dags It’s worth joining the FB group. There is constant listing on it
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1776977859208547/
Sorry that should have been for @somegeezer Apologies
Okay This is my dsay for babbling on.
In response to the video itself, 1) It was good to see Ben laughing when Warren was talking about his problems with the 3D printer….. I hate to think that I was then onmly one killing myself laughing over the double entendres …. I am almost certain they were intended but it may be that Warzan has now achieved a zen like stae where he does them without thinking.
2) Justin yout Guild War team look the business mate nice work ( and if you are allocating points in the current Guild Ball campaign since Blacksmiths and Farmers don’t have anything to try for please give your points to the Butchers 😉 )
3) Lawnor mate your painting was fabulous and you deserve that button but that spreadsheet was genius …. Now I know what is missing from my life …. I am going to do my own after I finsih here … bloody brilliant mate … besides if I have is all written down I might stop buying stuff …….
4) Justin, the Siberians have been eating mammoth for years. In fact when the last mammoth clonig attempt was on the scientists who were doing it kept getting frustrated by when then had reports of a mammoth being at the edge of a retreating ice field by the time they got out there some Siberian peasants had shown up and butchered the carcass.
5) and finally the look on Warren’s face when Justice spelt SEAL was my second laugh out loud moment of the video … priceless.
Thanks for an entertaining afternoon gents. Be happy and well.
You gotta think we’re gonna see mammoths resurrected in our lifetimes eh?
It’d be so cool ..
@warzan “You gotta think we’re gonna see mammoths resurrected in our lifetimes eh?”
Well lets face it if someone can get a feckin 3D printer to work properly then cloning extinct beasties from 10,000 year old DNA would be childs play by comparison.
Give it 100 years and we may have clone printers to replicate living things…now thats a scary thought.
@warzan Some info for you
Seals stands for United States Navy’s “Sea, Air, and Land” Teams
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs
Originally created in WW2 to help clear the beaches and recon units, the Seals teams as we know it was created in 1961 by JFK.
There are 11 Teams and the most known of the teams is SEAL Team 6 (Naval Special Warfare Development Group (NSWDG) or DEVGRU). This is the team that killed bin Laden and the American sniper Chris Kyle was a SEAL with Team 3.
If interested watch the movie Act of Valor as a large number of the guys in the movie portraying SEALS are active members of the Teams.
Thanks for that @grimwolfuk which team was Ventura a part of mate?
Have a look at this as its the only thing I could find
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Ventura#Navy_SEAL_background_controversy
He Graduated in 58 and the SEALS officially did form till ’61 but as he did the UDT training can call himself a SEAL.
happy sunday!
@warzan: You like the weird and wonderful in our world so I would recommend that you have a look at the Island Nan Madol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Madol
https://www.historicmysteries.com/nan-madol/
http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/nan-madol
It is basically a city/village that was built on a coral reef and was basically a Venice in the pacific. The Weird and wonderful part is that it is not quite clear how they managed to built the city, the rocks that have been used are on the other side of the island.
I forgot to mention that, the ruins of Nan Madol served as the inspiration for the city of R’lyeh in author H.P. Lovecraft’s Cthulhu Mythos.
That is fascinating!
The gales at Guy Force 9?
any relation to the gals from Fox Force 5?
Ketchup!
Is what I’m feeling what others feel when my brain farts us into some strange tangent?!?
#lostatsea lol
tis giraffes! though forgot the helicopter heiroglyphs.
http://www.livememe.com/5o4mnkx
You got me lol
Dinosaur/Egyptian army for Kings of War anyone?
And great episode. I got through a massive fry-up and a lot of 4ground building assembly.
more for frostgrave?
Ah no, for the Thing After Frotsgrave
i think on the game dieing front the halo game was a spot on reference, another you could of gone with is Knight Models Marvel miniature’s, seeing as disney themselves put the hammer on that one.
Happy Sunday all! Great show all, very enjoyable!
@warzan was a good insight into your 3D printing adventure. Fingers crossed they will return it to you in full working order as after such an investment in time and money it would only be right. Hopefully all that fitting and unfitting an element into a hot box hasn’t turned you off the project fully.
Lovely painted models @dignity, thought they turned out really great! I think the guy with the shield and hammer stands out as my favourite!
Also liked the idea of an overview of the years golden buttons in the awards show… perhaps there could be some award for the best or most inspiring? A platinum button maybe?
Back to my hobby now, I have to choose whats next to work on!
@warzan
I am afraid you are only going to get birds, but hey they are (one really specialised branch of) living breathing, car pooping, theropod dinosaurs.
It is something, unfortunately earth has reshuffled itself too many times, changed its continental locations too much and raised and lowered its temperature so many times that our chance of finding any DNA or actual living tissue frozen is next to impossible especially given the high temperatures earth was on the eras dinosaurs lived.
We do have found a tiny dinosaur tail caught in amber, maybe we will eventually find a complete tiny dinosaur someday.
But if you are hellbent on bringing them back, selective breeding, careful planning, patience and enouph time (maybe a few million years?) could in theory make the birds of today look like the raptors of old.
Really though, the fact it did not happen should not stop you enjoying it, if you think about it even historicals are in the “what if” category and have no moral high ground on fiction, theirs is more grounded in reality, but fiction never the less.
On the true subject at hand “dead games” live on the success they initially had, all GW specialist games lived because even though the games were “dead” the community had access until very recently to GW casting them the models as a direct order. yes, it has been many years since they stopped doing that, never the less, for the majority of their existence as dead people had access to miniatures and only needed the rules, likewise warzone had access from prince august and confrontation had many models around as did many other games who survived such ordeal.
Obscure games, or games who were stopped on their launch are always more difficult, because there are not many models to move around, there have been cases were either the game system got re-purposed and used with models from other manufacturers, but I do not think I remember ever to hear other manufacturers to take the torch and make models for a dead game (other than GWs but they were popular and had already a huge established player base and availability on models).
Happy Sunday, all.
Awesome work on those miniatures, @dignity ! 😀
And interesting . . . eh . . . theory @warzan . 😀 One question. Am I still Historical Editor? Because if so, I feel like I should do some “editing” here.
Just kidding. Never let anyone tell you how to have fun in gaming. 😀
All Tofu must die! Another great weekender guys!
49:45 – stay strong, @dignity . 50:30 – you have the patience of a saint. 😀
Another great show. Thanks fellas. Great to see the Mind Melter back.
Did I hear Star Wars Tournament from @warzan? Is it official now? Star Wars Legion Bootcamp? Can we book the date? Seems official to me! 🙂
haha afraid it’s Star Wars Destiny tournament and it’s coming soon to the site 😀 Az
I knew that, I was just having fun based on the joke that started after GenCon50.
There are Dinosaurs in the Nile Palestrina Mosaic. They are called ‘Kroco-leopards’ in Greek and you can see them getting chased by three hunters (top right corner above the Egyptian Temple)
…and the ‘Kroco-leopard’ is not a crocodile because crocodiles appear on the bottom left of the mosaic next to hippos.
The mosaic should be read North-South. So the Dinosaurs were near the Sudan. The Romans had a fort on that frontier and they probably fought dinosaurs all the time 🙂
http://www.historytoday.com/raoul-mclaughlin/desert-legions-romans-africa
Nile pygmies rode about on Stegosaurus wrecking stuff 🙁
@dignity Blacksmiths came out awesome. Just finished painting the two player starter set with the Masons and the Brewers for my son and I. We are loving the game.
…and King Fergus of Ulster died fighting the Muirdris which was probably an aquatic dinosaur swimming around Dundrum Bay. I read about it recently in Mallory’s, The Irish Dreamtime (?).
it happened in Saga Times so it must be historical fact
You are killing it this week @grimcrazy!
Amazing facts and insight mate, you are definitely one of the elite group of experts I was alluding to belonging to 😉
its proper open-minded source-based historical enquiry 🙂
Ancient Africa was probably teaming with now extinct dinosaurs. The vast Sahara Desert protected the southern Roman frontiers – except the Nile were the reptiles had a route north into Roman Egypt.
Why else would the cliff-top Roman fortress at Premnis be stacked with heavy weapons? Huge catapults and harpoon-launching two-man bolt-throwers. Check out the ballistae found by archaeologists. Those are dino-killers! The Romans were ready to go ‘Game of Thrones’ Bronn on any Giant Reptiles coming North.
as a co Down man, I can confirm that some parts still haven’t evolved and the chances of dinosaur attack is often high 🙂
It’s that bit between Newry and the border isn’t it?
I don’t believe that because everytime I drive past the bay the sea is always out and it’s just big areas of sand and rocks
…to be fair the ancient account says he just walked into the sea to fight the monster. He didn’t dive of a cliff – power-swim through the water like Aquaman; or coracle it out there like the end of Point Break.
Pliny the Elder says that poor old stuttering clumsy Claudius had to fight a sea-monster that attacked the harbour in Rome (an orca?)
@warzan those so called long necked diosaurs are probably giraffe….
@warzan You might like this, Dinotopia TV series; https://youtu.be/cwRT934sRuc
I gave that on DVD . It’s not too bad
I see your ancient period dinosaurs, and raise you medieval period dinosaurs!
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/deadthings/2016/06/01/found-medieval-dinosaurs/#.WdpILGhSyCg
After all, where do you think all those legends of dragons came from?
There obviously giraffes
Warzan was correct, a crucible is used to hold molten metal.
@thisisazrael : If you liked that spreadsheet that much, grab yourself a box of kleenex and check out the collection manager in my signature. That was just a snapshhot of a small part of the summary tab. I didn’t write the original one, but I have heavily modded it since ( had a lot of free time at work for a while so it got a lot of attention). I’ve also got lots of scribbled notes on the summary page. If the link doesn’t work for people who aren’t logged in to google as me, let me know and I’ll figure it out or send you a copy.
@warzan : I’ve been doing your annual goals thing for a few years. This year I posted my pledge in the hobby forum here: http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/painting/forum/topic/hobby-pledges-for-2017/?topic_page=1&num=15
I find it great for motivation, not only to make progress, but also for getting done the models I don’t want to, or am intimidated by. I’m also only 6 models off finishing my goal for the year now too.
To be honest, as I said in my original post, thats not everything I own paint, just everything Privateer Press. There’s still 376 models left to paint. My FLGS didn’t have the PP model I wanted in stock so I’m still at 100% there though. Working on my last 3 Kings of War models today too, not that I own a full army.
Also, I chose roman numerals because they are much easier to paint than numbers or letters. My handwriting is illegable with a biro. With a brush on a curved surface I wouldn’t stand a chance!
Damnit! No sig here. Try this link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fJY7MrEjxfKncmkrqxeHkFAD7R4lCxFOzIjz95r2_1k/edit?usp=sharing
@lawnor oh my, not sure I should click your links while I’m in the studio then……
What few people understand is that the dinosaurs were the aliens. The dinosaurs weren’t used as menial laborers, but equipment operators and upper level project managers. The dinosaurs at the pyramid build-sites were on punishment detail from Atlantis, and they sarcastically referred to themselves as “menial laborers” because they had to lower themselves to work with humans obsessed with minecraft buildings.
@warzan talking about Blood Bowl the Naf took over from games workshop after they got rid of specialist games and were the ones that created the living rule book for the game they formed a committee along with if my memory is correct Jervis Johnson to keep the game aluve. They have and still promote tournaments around the world.
https://www.thenaf.net/
That thing with the blacksmith guild ball team looks like a furnace for smelting metal.
The pot where the metal is melted is called a crucible.
Dead Games:
On a slight tangent from dead miniature games is WFRP ( Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay ), which is a ‘dead’ RPG that is constantly being reanimated. Here’s a brief timeline of official and licenced publishing in the UK.
1986 – 1992 WFRP 1st Edition published by Games Workshop ( GW ).
1995 – 2002 WFRP 1st Edition published by Hogshead.
2004 – 2008 WFRP 2nd Edition published by Black Industries ( GW ) and Green Ronin.
2008 – 2008 WFRP 2nd Edition published by Fantasy Flight Games ( FFG ).
2009 – 2012* / 2014** / 2017*** WFRP 3rd Edition published by FFG.
* This is roughly when it became obvious that FFG weren’t publishing any more WFRP material.
** This is when FFG made an official announcement.
*** This is when FFG officially discontinued the WFRP line.
2017 WFRP 4th Edition announced by Cubicle 7.
For me, and for many WFRP players, WFRP 3rd edition was a very different beast to 1st, 2nd and ( so we are told ) the forthcoming 4th edition. WFRP 3rd edition used very different mechanics, and was set in a significantly different version of the Warhammer Fantasy World. So essentially the 3rd edition years were ‘dead’ years for many ( i’d wager most ) 1st and 2nd edition players. So, including that 3rd edition period you can see that there have been 3 periods of ‘dead’ years for WFRP 1st / 2nd edtion players, spanning periods of 3 years, 2 years and 9 years, totalling 14 ‘dead’ years in the game’s 31 year history. Some 1st edition players didn’t much like the 2nd edition material either, so that’s another 4 ‘dead’ years, totalling 18 ‘dead’ years. These ‘dead’ years don’t include those years when the game was officially being published but not actually being supported with new material.
I say ‘dead’ years, but actually i found many of these ‘dead’ years to be some of the best for WFRP. I think the ball truely got rolling on fan material with the production of Warpstone, a fanzine started in 1996, which nurtured the game and built the foundations for the community ( offline and in print no less ). This was cemented by Hogshead, who were in many ways officially licenced fan publishers, supporting Warpstone and the community well. SInce then there have been many websites sharing their own fan material, hosting fan material, hosting forums, and serving as a way of organising games. Some have gone, some have been around a long time, and some are new. There has been so much material created by fans since Warpstone that it seems for some in the WFRP community it has become a hobby in its own right to find and collate it all. ( Someone is even building a history of WFRP ( 1st edition ) with their ‘Lost Warhammer’ and ‘The WFRP Story’ posts on their blog ( 1 ). ) The fanzine material doesn’t show any signs of stopping any time soon. In addition to the fan made material an entirely new ‘Grim and Perilous’ RPG called Zweihander has been produced and published developed from a WFRP fan’s houserules.
By contrast those years in which the game has been published have sometimes been problematic for the WFRP community, whose members have been pushed to cease printing, publishing and/or completely remove some of the most professional works and biggest most organised collections from the web. ( Whether this was actual cease and desist i don’t know. ) Don’t get me wrong, there are high hopes for the 4th edition of the game, even from those of us who have just bought into the Zweihander RPG. Even if it’s not to everyone’s liking having a publisher in the past has meant new players contributing material that can be used or adapted for all editions of the game ( albeit spread all over the place in those ‘crack down’ years ) whatever edition or fan rules version it is tailored to. None the less, if the game had never ‘died’ i think it would be in a much poorer state. In many ways it has been the fan based material that has set the bench marks in terms of quality and expectations, and for a smart publisher i think it has been a firm bedrock upon which to re-publish the game.
( 1 ) https://awesomeliesblog.wordpress.com/
I forgot to mention that this is a UK English language perspective. There have been publishers in other languages around the rest of Europe and a considerable amount of fan material in other languages. Some WFRP players have been good enough to translate from one language to another on request on occasion.
A game that has a lot of similarities to the HALO situation would be Starship Troopers. It closed up when Mongoose got in trouble. One big difference might be that some of the product was and still is out there in small quantities. I know there was at least one person molding and selling some of the metal miniatures after the fact. I heard a story of someone raiding a dumpster after a lot of the product was trashed also. For a while prices on the rarer left overs skyrocketed not sure if that is the case anymore. Not sure how active the community is any more. Another game down the same vein might be Babylon 5’s ACTA also.
First of all, yep that’s a crucible.
Second, your Blacksmiths are looking pretty awesome now Justin. Sorry for the pre-paint remark, it was because you presented them in that new display style box, which I hadn’t seen before.
Great show this week. Thoroughly enjoyed the Mind Melter. Normally @warzan I’m totally with you as your historical research skills are unequalled. This time I have to gree with @dignity you are clearly way off course. The dinosaurs were not used to build the pyramids. My proof is in this fantastic documentary http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443649/ (10,000BC if you don’t fancy following the link). It may only have 8% on Rotten Tomatoes but then when has any feature length documentary been any good? It clearly shows the pyramids were in fact built using mammoths. Not only that but as Neolithic man lacked the construction skills the foremen were in fact aliens.
Now that we’ve got to the truth perhaps we can all move on.
Ah bollocks!
@zoidpinhead – you had me all excited you had actually found a documentary – clearly showing the pyramids were in fact built using mammoths. Not only that but as Neolithic man lacked the construction skills the foremen were in fact aliens.
sad 🙁
Now you know how I feel.
I get all excited by @warzan and the mind melter every week. Sometimes on further investigation I find it sometimes fails to stand up to logical and balanced enquiry. Controversial I know but there it is.
@warzan you say videogames companies are more relaxed, but EA went after megacon games bicause their flame for myth looked similar to somthing EA did (EA’s words, not actual fact).
Also, companies like Nintendo hates live streamers
EA are just about the worst of the computer games publishers – come to think of it is Halo not just published by Microsoft? So would they be the right ones to speak to?
the hot metal thingy is a crucible I think? @warzan if a game has a big following the players/fans could keep them going like many games GW had stopped years ago.
@warzan & @beardragon14 the definately helps us for sure infact I could do with another
Jokes aside though the real question I have is where Justin got that Skaven mug
Uu-u-u-u-uugh. That mind melter was a trainwreck. No water left in the well.
I love this weekender. Thanks guys. 🙂
AWESOME WEEKENDER!!!!!!!
1. First off I have to say @warzan that you have utterly and absolutely convinced me without a doubt that I DO NOT want to get a 3D printer. There is absolutely no fricken way I’m getting into trying to do that in my spare time. The only way I could do it in the future is if its guaranteed to work and I have painted all the stuff I already have. That’s probably the biggest reason I’d stay out of 3D printing, I can’t get to all the great stuff I have now as it is!!!!
2. Secondly my experience with a game dying is WAR OF THE RING in the GW Lord of the Rings game. I absolutely love the feel and look of the massed battles in Middle Earth!
That said I can see with the way gaming is going these days to smaller games that are easy for people to get into it will never get resurrected. Painting over 250 Uruk Hai as I have done is not for the faint hearted. Working now on the Rohan force and boy do I love the Royal Guard!
That said my best friend and gaming bud have tweaked the War of the Rings rules very slightly to keep it from being a broken system that so many complained about.
Very simply we limited magic to 1 Mastery level for every 500 points in your army.
Epic Hero’s only get to do one Epic action in a game (thus truly making it Epic!).
One or two other character changes like nerfing Khamul the Easterling to only redirecting hits his formation takes on a 6 etc….
I have not thought of starting a FB page or creating an on line support system for the game as I just don’t think there is an appetite for large table top games even in the Lord of the Rings arena.
That said I am a member of GBHL and they do a great job of keeping the LOTR SBG gaming community going. Maybe I should tweak them about this and see if I get any bites. if there are any guys interested it has to be there.
@warzan I’m on the fence on the Egyptians and the dinosaurs!!! You may have to do another segment on that to convince me!!!!!! Sorry Justin!
Great episode, love the talks on the gaming community ‘Quandaries’ like today’s topic on Dead Games, absolutely a must keep when it come to planning for weekenders!!!!!
@silverfox8 – I’m interested in your revisions to War of the Ring. I thought it was a great game and was gutted it never really took off. In typical (then) GW fashion, they seemed to pull all the army deals when they launched it, making it really expensive to build a force for. That and a few broken rules and non-themed elements put a lot of people off what was, at it’s core, I think a really interesting game. And one which I think reflected the setting as well as the LotR strategy game did the skirmish scale.
I can send you the One page of house rules if you want. Just shoot me an email at [email protected]
I’m with you on the 3D printer, unless i can afford to buy a top of the range profession, cutting edge 3D printer, and perhaps the professional to go with it i think i’m out on the 3D printers for now. £3.79 ( is it? ) for backstage access well spent.
On the subject of dead games, I think that Halo is probably in about as hard a position as any game to survive the ‘dead’ period. It has a combination of factors counting against it: a specific look / IP meaning it’s difficult to swap in miniatures from other ranges; it wasn’t around for very long before dying (so didn’t have long to build a following or for lots of armies to come into existence); it was (core set excepted) pretty expensive – which links to another point against it: if the cost of the license vs. size of the market didn’t stack up for Spartan, that doesn’t bode well for another company either wanting to give it a go or being given the chance by Microsoft.
Historical games are relatively easy to keep alive: you just need people to want to play the games and it’s not too hard to find alternative miniatures – if indeed the game was actually linked to a particular range in the first place.
Which sort of raises another point: when we’re talking about Halo, we’re talking about a game system and a connected range of miniatures and a setting. When we’re talking historical gaming, or even some more generic fantasy / SF settings, we can distinguish between game, setting and miniatures more easily. And ask the question: which part of the equation do we actually want to keep alive?
If its the miniatures that make you feel like you’re playing the game, and they’re still available, then the community might just ‘hack’ another game system to enable them to keep playing games in the world that they love. If it was the game that was great, and the miniatures weren’t anything special, then alternative miniatures could be found.
It’s when you’re trying to save that combination of game, setting and IP that things get much harder.
Hey guys!
All I can say to start things out is thank you. Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU!!! The Halo Tabletop community has gotten a little too accustomed to bad news lately, so whenever you started reading my (digital) letter ‘on air’ Warren, I got goosebumps! It’s a real breath of fresh air to get a bone tossed our way; and an absolute treat to hear opinions on our games’ predicament from people in the industry whom I respect (no, really!). 😀
Thank you Warren for focusing the discussion on the tough questions Ground Command and Fleet Battles face (hasn’t been around a long time, protected IP, etc.). This is all uncharted territory for me, so any and all help is much appreciated, and you all contributing this energy and thought to helping me out is just very, very kind (Feel that warmth? Yup, that’s meh heart…).
And you were right on the money from the start Az – having a central hub for communication is key. Thankfully we’ve established a good hub on Facebook for both Ground Command and Fleet Battles, respectively. Facebook’s proliferation has provided good exposure, and we’re reaching existing players (and finding new ones) from all over to let them know the community is interested in keeping things going.
Community feedback will be kind of our rubber approval stamp for most things. When I first starting digging into this, I wanted that to be central to how things are done (Facebook’s polling tool is great for this, btw).
Next, an aspirational project is a great idea! And you got it Ben – before the Covenant war, the UNSC were fighting insurrectionists left and right. Your idea of a Insurrectionists vs. UNSC prequel scenario is awesome btw… something I might pitch to our little group to chew on. ; ) Even better is that the insurrectionists start to make a return, so to speak, after the fall of the Covenant. So post-war scenarios would also stick to the Canon. :{)} (That’s a beard emoticon, btw Ben. As a fellow beardsman, I grant this to you to use as you see fit!)
Your idea of contacting Microsoft directly, Warren, is actually kinda brilliant. We’ve made connections with people in MS and 343 Industries (the MS studio currently developing Halo) during past tabletop conventions, and I’m wondering if that might also be a good place to start along with the routes you mentioned…
Oh and Justin, please let me know if that Beasts of War Orphanage ever takes off… I could be your first ‘burden of the state’. 😀 😀 😀
As for getting games into the virtual space – I definitely see the value in it. I think I might ask the community who among us might be a good lead for something like that. I personally don’t have much experience with Vassal or Tabletop Simulator, but I do I know HFB was at least in TS at on time; so hopefully this might be easier to get off the ground and going than other efforts.
Finally, you’re right; events are the lifeblood of a community like this. Hopefully with some more work and collaboration we might be able to forge past Adepticon and into more conventions and the like.
Well, that about wraps up my initial thoughts from this excellent segment. Again – Thank you, Thank you, THANK YOU!!! Thank you BoW team and community!!! Please send any more feedback (and good wishes, we may need em!) my way. 😀
Sincerely,
Grand Marshal (Vinnie)
I would suggest setting up an independent forum. Platforms like facebook, twitter, etc, require that players are willing to use them, which not everyone is. Also, if you are using a platform then at any moment that platform’s policies can change in such a way as to ( inadvertantly or not ) be detrimental to your purpose in using the platform ( as many youtube content producers have recently found out ). I have found independent forums to be an anchor, and something of a repository for Android Netrunner and Warhammer Fantasy RolePlay ( WFRP ). I’ve seen some of the subforums appear to be dead for months on the WFRP i frequent, only for it to spring to life when out of the blue someone asks a question or posts some new work they’ve made.
Thanks for the feedback! I’ve given some thought to that. Would you by chance happen to know how I could start a forum of my own?
A lot of games use http://www.Yuku.com for their games forum . They are a bit advert heavy but as far as I know free and it would get you started.
Once started I would a post a notice on The miniatures page. http://www.theminiaturespage.com in their sci-fi section. The site isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but a lot of people do look at it and would probably get you the widest free coverage for wargamers
Thanks torros!!! I’ll keep that in mind when the group discusses this. : D
I don’t have any experience running a forum, only using them. I can say that my favourite forum format is the one that the ‘stimhack’ forum uses ( https://forum.stimhack.com/ ). I think it’s open source, though i can’t see what on the forum led me to think so. Maybe you can ask them if you’re interested in using that format.
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@warzan think you have patience of Saint with 3d printer……think there would be a printer shaped hole in the window!
Only thing that may have tempered it is the 500+ squid.
How to keep a game alive? Add dinosaurs, problem solved.
Painting tutorial from Warzan – YES please – plus great idea – competition – same model painted by each member of Beasts of War team – and the community to judge best – oh and best video of how to they painted the mini as well… 🙂
Think about games that died, and example that comes to mind was Mongooses ‘Starship Troopers; massive launch, tons of stuff brought out, thought the moulding on the no plastic left a lot to be desired, Then Matt Sprang had the idea of changing it to pre-painted, so nothing came out, support died, and gues what I’ve got 3 boxes of the stuff, Butgs were done put MI were a pain to build so other than a handful never finished.
Bright side of it is the bugs have been used in other games, and will become proxy Tyranids in 8th edition Warhamster, fighting my Raven Guard with proxy Adeptus Mechcanus (my Hammers Slammer , East Riding Constabulary) Cadians and proxy Catchacans (Mallets Manglers of same game)
It has just occurred to me. You sceptics have forgotten about the most famous Ancient Dinosaur – the rhino-saurus…
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Any of those options would be better than having to delete the app entirely. And if you choose to restart the game, be sure to save your progress before clicking “Restart Game.”