Weekender XLBS: GW Returning To Specialist Games?
November 22, 2015 by warzan
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Happy Sunday to all. It may be cold and miserable outside but I’ve got a hot cup of coffee and the weekender to keep me chipper.
Happy Sunday! As for 4Ground a space station interior might be cool in their style. Not enough interior terrain out there!
I reckon a nice barrack complex akin to the sorts of colonial stuff you saw across Africa in the mid 1800’s and beyond. Definitely with a flag pole in the centre of the parade ground. A sci-fi version of that would be neat.
I am really hoping the move from GW will be towards the board game side of the market and I for one am optimistic that this is what they will do.
As for the sci fi buildings, I would like to see a landing pad/heli pad type building with a control tower and I would like to see them move towards creating linked buildings with fences and raised walkways.
I would agree, i am also optimistic for the return of old classics, there is such a rich background with these and clearly popular followings looking at all the PC conversions. I can remember when these were not even considered a separate entity and GW had a huge catalogue of different games including board games. Hopefully these will be done properly with continuing support like new races and campaigns rather than the stand alone style that has been the more recent trend.
As for the terrain I think a med bay would be cool but I like the idea of linking walkways and corridors in a command complex.
It would be interesting to see a futuristic stoic arms.. Or a futuristic city set, maybe even alien/technologically advanced race compound..
Can not wait for Battle Fleet Gothic. My parents could never afford it back in the day. Now I have Credit Cards. BRING IT ON !!!. Also I loved Blood Bowl
If the basis is Mars, how about an plant that produces water! Got to get it from somewhere, either from an asteroid or some under ground ice pocket, so a processing plant that converts ice into water for all uses, including clouds!
Also 40k EPIC Yaaaaaahhhhhhh
Indeed. That was my first miniature wargame way back. That game has always been a love of mine och to me the world of 40k makes zero sense in 28mm but fits like *Sean Connery impression* A LEATHER GLOVE in epic scale (is it 6mm?).
However…I don’t really trust GW to release epic in a good way again. And even if they do it will probably come with GW prices and considering the massive competition the GW specialist games are in it will be a no go for me.
Kind of funny all these games coming out from GW when one of they exec’s said GW is not a games company but a collectible miniatures company at the last shareholders meeting.
Someone did not get the memo.
I think you’re right about Specialst Games. I think GW wants a piece of the boardgame market. And “contained in a box” games are pretty popular, especially with the ability for expanding them. Biggest challence will be the price. There are some great alternatives to all the old GW specialist games – and they are much cheaper.
Didn’t like the 4ground sci-fi when it first came out with pictures. But your review yesterday changed that. Absoluetly great.
First thing they should do is a medical/research facility with lots of cryosleep, cloning etc pods. Could be used for so many things. Infil/sabotage missions with so many boardgames deadzone, black ops, infinity. Zombie gaming with zombies coming out of those pods there.
There’s lots of factory style terrain out there. So continueing the line they should do more “core world” stuff. Officer academy, sci-fi shops, a labratory for augmentation / nano tech.
Hospital/sick bay – loads of cool room dressing options, easy segway in to “ATTACK OF THE KILLER SPACE ZOMDIES FOR MARS” and versatile, wars make great barrack/hotel/of ice rooms. A landing pad on the roof could be a nice touch to.
Oh. And did I miss (or did you forget) the Eden prize winenr announcement mentioned yesterday?
Agree with @bloodbeard that the video changed my mind on the 4Ground SF. In addition to my thoughts on frontstage I would like to see 4Ground make a security station/defences to augment their terrain. We will all be using this stuff for wargaming on some level so maybe police security areas would acknowledge that.
OK RPG debate! Have to take Warren to task on scope and scale in roleplaying as I think this changes with experience. I started with the red box DnD back in the days of yore which was exactly as Warren describes where its very, very constrained and it doesn’t really matter whether you turn left or right and the next cross roads as the DM only has one prepared encounter. I call that phases one RPG, phase two is the power gamer where its about destroying the best laid plans of the games master. if your group doesn’t destroy its self in phase two you move to phases three. phase three is the time of great campaigns, huge story arc, characters become leaders of men and founders of cities. Phase four in the ‘enlightenment’ era of gaming where story triumphs and the game mechanics become fluid and organic.
I think these phases are mirrored in the games mechanics you have games where every single dice role is essential and determine every outcome. Then you had the era of the story telling games where you were on a scale of success and then too systems like FATE where you have a ladder of success and failure and the ability to use plot points or a similar tool.
DnD 5e in its innovation gives the phase of roleplaying through the range of alternative rule options. I went for phases however you could read this as levels of maturity… I have gamer friends who our NEVER invited to role play sessions.
My idea for the 4ground terrain,
How about a scientific research hub with satellites, but the main feature being a big ‘bio dome’. You could fill it with the 4 ground trees, with the idea they are trying to breed earth plants for mars.
I love the theme of a colony trying to settle in to the harsh environment. So you need all the standard buildings a colony needs, research centres (bio dome), hospitals, air conditioning units, mines etc. But also we are war-gammers so there is always the threat of being attacked by alien or fellow human forces, so you would also need gun turrets, defence lines, sniper towers, military quarters.
A moduler set colony, based on the fast expansion of life but also with the need to protect it.
Excellent suggestion. The harsher the exterior environment, the better the contrast. Could be great with Infinity.
@warzan ref your comparison of Monster to Warhammer Quest. I’ve been of the opinion that GW have been perfectly placed to put out a revised edition of Warhammer Quest, mainly because their plastics have surpassed so completely what was in the original Quest box, which in it’s time was a benchmark for quality. Just imagine if they went in, tidied up the rules a bit (but keeping the bits of madcap lunacy that made it so unique), and then loaded the box full of their top notch push-fit Fantasy miniatures for all the gribblies from those 5-mini unit booster packs they put out. Resculpt the four classic heroes, hell, just making them resemble the dynamism of the box art would make them almost instant buys. You want an expansion? Take the Warrior Packs that fleshed out the core game, redo the minis in plastic and package them in one “variety pack”. I’d readily drop £200 on that lot. If they then did the same with the two published expansions? Tossing in more “grunt” figures for their specific themes to avoid running out? SOLD
(I will admit to a bias as we played this game to death at Uni and still get a game in when we meet up if we can…)
And it all would have been so much more effective when they’re was a warhammer universe to set it in 🙂
I do wonder what an age of sigmar crawler might look like. 🙂
Now there’s an interesting idea. That could actually make some of the more bonkers elements of WQ make more sense, especially with some of the more “fluid” allegiances & alignments in AOS. For the DM there’s loads of potential- the party inadvertantly travelling to another realm that could affect abilities & spells in new ways, buff or debuff both the heroes & monsters. Perhaps one of the warriors could be a Stormcast Eternal, attempting to retrieve relics that puts him at odds with his allies? As well as trying to explain away why he doesn’t take off his armour (a replacment or variant of the Chaos Warrior perhaps?). The various realms could also make it more reasonable to have your brave band of “heroes” taking on a dungeon full of Elves or Dwarves?
Surprisingly, I think that this (along with Bloodbowl) might be a game that actually benefits from the death of the Old World….
Easy solution to that is for them to first revive Fantasy as a Specialist Game and then release Mordheim, Warhamster, Man o War and (Hero)Quest as tie ins for it. And if they need a fluff explanation just hand wave it as being set in a parallel universe, the past or a reflection of the old setting that Tzeentch captured in a time loop so he has something to toy with between scheming. 😉
Given that Age of Sigmar is very much about re-conquest I think a dungeon crawler would fit very well. Heroes setting out into the unknown Chaos Lands to recover knowledge or ancient artefacts and weapons to aid in Sigmar’s fight to reclaim the world (worlds?) from the clutches of Chaos. I think as a setting it does lend itself well to a dungeon crawler.
I got my copy of kingdom death in the post last week and my girlfriend and I have LITERALLY played it everyday if not twice since. It surpasses ALL dungeon crawlers in game play, miniature quality, tactics AND design. Its so good I’ve lost interest in getting hero saga.
Sorry Warren, but if I had to choose between Warhammer Quest and Kingdom Monster, I would choose WQ without a doubt.
And yeah, happy Sunday you all!
PS. I also do believe that Epic would be a big success if brought back by GW!
Happy Sunday guys, I think a great piece for continuing the sci-fi range would be a futuristic petrol station. There are some lovely vehicles being released now which you have shown recently both cars and bikes and a petrol forecourt with a shop would be a nice terrain piece with some special house rules for stray shots hitting the pumps.
The specialist games topic is a tough one to give an opinion on with it being so early and not a lot of information about what they are doing with these games. If nothing else I for one would love to see a complete model overhaul of all those ranges especially with the modern techniques that are now available and hope they use it as a proving ground to bring on new talented designers, renderers, sculptors and writers. If they do nothing more than that I imagine I will buy some and dig out the old boards that have been stored away for a while.
What I hope will happen is they use these already established games as a mechanism to build a truly innovative team that gets better with each old IP they develop and/or overhaul. At the same time their projects would bring in some income from these older almost cult games so the company has a lower risk production run while the new guys/girls find their feet. In addition any that have come from other backgrounds, such as computer games design or other product ranges, would then get an overall flavour of the GW universe. After all the specialist games cover a lot of ground.
By the end the team should be well established, strengths and weaknesses identified and adjustments and training provided where needed. Then let them loose to design something new. I guess only time will tell but in this day and age finding something new that is totally unique for a whole genre must be tough.
I think a Sci Fi Car-Port/Garage for grav vehicles would really be cool. Multi level with hangers for the grav vehicles. 5th element and iRobot would be some great inspiration. I think episode 3 of Star Wars also has some good shots along with the Cartoon on Netflix
Foreground Sci if needs a hospital building for all the casualties of whatever game is being played with the buildings
A solar and wind farm for 4Grounds buildings, big solar panels, windmills and transformers. You’d need that sort of power generation and as Mars gets some serious windspeed up a wind farm would be useful.
Happy Sunday! On the 4ground side a set of retail buildings ( by some point in the future would some of them be simply collection/print points? ). and street food vendors.
I would love there to be a sci-fi skyscraper/Hyper hotel.
Re GW: I reckon it’s a shame those games aren’t already on the shelves as a constant presence to draw in new gamers to the Warhammer IP and give variety to the range. Shouldn’t require a huge investment to bring back and keep up to date. I agree though that hopefully this is just one of many plans to grow the company.
Re 4Ground: A power generation installation would be interesting.
4Ground should create a Space Bar, where the scum of the universe can hang out. Where adventures begin!
With GW specialist games, I really think the success will depend on how the games are supported. If they are a flash in the pan and no real development or support then I fear they will fail. We are really keen for the revival of some of them, blood bowl, epic etc but GW need to be more open to working with the other companies who, to be frank, support these games more than GW do. Let’s face it the BB teams from Black Scorpion are awesome !!!
As for the 4ground sci-if range I have already put my comments yesterday however had slept on it and have a more developed idea. I would still like to see this range develop with linking terrain. By this I mean the first feature price should be a central hub building, multi layer, large hexagonal shaped (this gives 6 corridors to lead off). From the terminal doors there should be a corridor system (removable roofing !!!). The corridors should have multiple options I.e some with side doors, some without, straight sections, L sections, bend sections, end door sections to connect to other buildings etc etc. The corridors should be able to link together and/or link to another building. These further buildings can include some of the wonderful suggestions from this thread.
This plan enables us gamers who like to put a story to our games, to really build a massive structured gaming table that has purpose. We can pick and choose what our ‘settlement fortress’ consists of (a pick and mix package price structure would be good) Multiple level capability would be awesome through corridors on stilts….
Happy Sunday…:-)
On GW call me a cynic but I don’t actually care what they do, when I was 15 and playing GW games I had fun then the ethos of GW changed and ruined it for me. Don’t get me wrong I loved games like Blood Bowl, but I have it and I have it with enough teams to play it again anytime I want. The only thing that would get me to buy into GW again would be an amazing new game that is totally original…but that’s along shot.
On the kickstarters… ARCADIA reminds me of an old game that I cannot remember the name of but with fancier minis.
All hands on deck seems to be a pirate version of happy families 😉
Totally disagree with @warzan for once. I think GW’s IP is their strength. A new take on Battlefleet Gothic would be great. The IP has also reached out into computer gaming and is a way to get new players in. I’d like to see them advance the story a bit though. The advantage 30K has over 40K is that scenarios take place over an epic arc that has a beginning, middle and end. 40K is essentially static and definitely needs shaking up.
For the 4Ground line I’m thinking about this since a while now: Modular Board.
Let’s assume they can put on the market 1″x1″ or 2″x2″ modular board with holes in which you can change terrain. Basically it’s a bit like the tress with removable base, so the board would be filled with holes in which we can change terrain. A circular hole can be filled with a tree, or a tower or anything with circular base, then square boards can have building of different type, with a good collection of pieces you can have a firm, sturdy board in no time, scenery will fit just nicely and the options to modify it will be many. I would love something like that 🙂
Happy Sunday!
As I’ve written in frontstage, a fast food restaurant would be great for 4ground scifi!
I agree to a point with Warren has to say but I would love GW to re-release the specialist games. I’m 25 now and when those games were in their prime I was a bit to young to get into them. Through lack of money and not being of an age to truly appreciate them. But I’ve always wanted to play BFG, epic, necromunda and many others. For me the fact that there might be other companies that have a similar game with what you may describe as better mechanics doesn’t really bother me because I love the 40k universe in particular and having more options for me to get more involved in it on lots of different levels really appeals to me and I know many other people that are in the same boat as myself. I’d be more than happy to spend more money on gw than going to a different company so that I can get more involved in to a universe that I simply love above all others
We need a mecha workshop for all those giant gun toten walkers
4Ground could add a sick bay, armoury and an entertainment complex (after all you have to keep them workers/ colonists happy or they revolt!).
@GW Specialist Games
I’m only interested in BFG.. I just completely adore the ships plus they have a whole universe of fluff. The background is so immensely rich that GW will hold an advantage over the more recent competition still imho. If they play their hand cleverly they could be up for a winner.
Generally tho I have to admit looking backwards is never a goo long term solution..
They’ve covered SciFi and Fantasy, how about something reality based? Either contemporary or historical?? 😎
For the 4Ground Sci-Fi range I’d like to see a scientific research facility ‘Aliens 2’ 😛
For the 4ground Building i would love to see some kind of coomunications outpost with all of it’s antannas and sattelite dishes. And for the future maybe some kind of military installation.
happy sunday! I do enjoy Kickstrarter bit but is there any chance that you could do separate show about it and take it off weekender?
with the 4ground another good idea for me to buy terrain would be spare parts store, but mech or heavy vehicles orientated, imagine upgrades for your mech hanging of the wall, crates of equipment, Armour etc.
GW 0 I think its a good step forward, but with their shattered opinion in my eyes I will double think before I would buy anything again from them, board games more possible than wargame, space hulk expansion, definitely,
A big hydroponics/ greenhouse then a big rugged repair shop and also a big contained powerplant
Great show today. Nothing in the kickstarter segment to open my wallet this week but it could go with a break.
Specialist Games didn’t make a profit for GW back in the day. That’s why they were ditched. Why do they think they’ll make one in future?
Anyhoo…
My suggestion for a sci-fi building is a Star Port.
Happy Sunday!
I’d be intrigued by Necromunda, as I know a bunch of people who would probably start playing that at the club if there was a reboot. But will it be as good as Infinity? Probably not.
In my opinion, GW would need to crack the tedious ‘my turn, then 30 minutes later, your turn’ approach that bogs down a lot of the old games (and even a lot of new games from outside GW). Their approach in Calth, with alternate activations, is AWESOME because it shows they’re able to move forward.
But will it be a movement forward by innovative rules, or by stripping back a la AoS?
…and I’m gonna be heretical here, but I couldn’t give a damn about Space Hulk. I found it tedious 20 years ago, I still do. Space Crusade was miles better. If they rebooted that, I would buy it in a heartbeat. But gawd, Space Hulk bores the pants off me.
Happy sunday! I said a train and a station frontstage, but having thought about it a bit more, I actually want a scifi version of the watch tower they already do, sortof like the hall of justice from Dredd- a big landing pad up top whos supports form a figure head(eagle or lion) a medbay/ armoury level, barracks, interview/evidence rooms, cells and booking all on top of a nice big motorpool level…
Happy Sunday I’m thinking solar and wind farm
The old specialist games are too dated to do well if re-released as they are now. Reworking them into boxed sets for one-off releases would be ok but GW only ever supports these releases for a couple of weeks at best, then you never hear of them again. I can see them releasing a game just before Christmas and another just before the end of their financial year. The motivation would be to make their sales figures look good, not to release “good” games.
The strength of the old specialist games was their extensive play testing before release (which you can’t rush), and the fact that they enjoyed on-going support for months if not years after release.
For the 4ground terrain, I imagine most frontier Mars settlements would have a landing pad where supplies could be dropped off and collected. This would also work well with the crates that they have already designed.
Great show this week. I’ll be looking forward to the GW specialist games being released again as I’ve heard so much about them. I’m new to the hobby and missed them first time around, so I’d love to try them out.
GWS innovate?!?! 40k at its heart still uses a stat line and basic system 30 years in age. AOS is actually the laughing stock of the gaming world at the moment, it’s an awful rule set and simply trying to shoe horn spacemarines into fantasy. Thankgod for Mantic.
epic 40k armaggedon is arguably the best rules system they every created. It is also the closest one can get to the representation of the fluff of back ground, with massive scale armies knocking the plan out of each other.
elephant in the room.
MONEY.
all the specialist games require a limited amount of money needed to be spent on them to make them playable true now as it was back in the day. Necromunda for example, back in the day £18 bought a gang, version two of the game rules cost £20, there’s less than £40 and your done. Grab the box set, £50 in the day, two gangs, all the rule books, dice, terrain, literately didn’t need to buy anything more, unlike the starter sets for 40k where you did need to buy tanks, fast atttack etc. The rules lend thenselves to people making gangs out of existing models, as such GW can’t fleece the life out of the customer so it’s pulled. Another example, warmaster and epic, you could buy an army for less with £50, an entire army, titans, dragons, mass infantry, tanks, artillery, all for tiny prices cause of the scale. Customer can’t be fleeced, pull it. Gorkamorka we got into this year again on the back on Mad Max, I spent £35 in the local GWS got a trukk with 10 orks, I’m done, thats my gang, that’s no good for GWS I can’t be fleeced, this is why GWS focused so much on 40k, it’s the easiest to fleece people on. Shall I continue….
Dread fleet failed very simply, it’s a beautiful game, I expect nothing less from GWS, but totally unsupported, thrown out there and forgot about, support the game and it can float, I’d hate to see them do the same with the classics like epic, throw it out there and forget it.
Brining them back is lazy, I disagree that the games con’t hold up, Epic and Necro are two I certainly still play and both still hold up amazingly well, but I do agree that I can’t see where this is going to lead long term.
Rerelease of the games, well it’s doubtful because to support them all would be fairly brutal. Reimagining of the games is a possibility but then flies in the face of the video games that are being made, it doesn’t make sense in a business view. A possibly is using the specialist games in the space hulk vein, have the games lined up and when sales are looking sad throw out a specislist game to float the sales for the quarter.
Sitting on the IP not making MONEY isn’t smart, christ alive a gang of 10 orlocks would cost a nice little £80 quid probably these days especially through forgeworld… Back on the money train, begin the fleecing.
Stating the price has nothing to do with it is not true, price is the biggest problme GWS face, they are compaired daily with their competitors and they cannot compete due to their absolute disregard for their customer and price. warhammer skaven jezzails 5 plastic minis £90 cannot be justified and that was on their website store less than a year ago. Please tell me why, if I were new to the hobby, why I wouldn’t go War path over 40K? I R LIKE MARINEZ, well yeah, enforcers are marines, and War path is support now just like 40k was once supported, so deadzone, the dungoen crawler who’s name I forget that has the Veer-myn and corperation, there’s your sci-fi dungoen crawler! and all for a fraction of the price with a rule set not 30 years old.
Rant over.
4ground mars thing, defence turrets, like a wall that goes around your buildings and has defence towers every so often,
4Ground mars stuff needs a “Bar & Grill” or a “Strip Club”.
A workcamp if not in the 40ish german style, but a work line were prisoners or POWs are put to good use. Guard towers and an administration building
As I mention yesterday 4Ground should produce a vehicle storage come flyer landing pad complete with approach tower and homing beacon.
GW wise I’m really sat on the fence, the inner young me says yes bring back the old games so I can re live my youth but I do that anyway by playing the old games with my kids (in fact I had a great couple of hours yesterday teaching them escape from Colditz). I’m with @lloyd here in thinking that the breath of stuff in the market place, coupled with the other stuff that fills our days means we will never see the like of 40k again, there is simply too much choice to focus opinion on one new product. That’s not to say GW shouldn’t bring out bold new IP, God I hope they do, because even though I don’t like a lot of what they done recently (turning WD into a glorified catalogue etc) I do really have a soft spot for them and ultimately want them to stay in the marketplace. I just think they need to adapt the business to be a bit more customer focused. Be a company that makes a series of great Well loved games and then add to them with new and innovative ones.
With the 4Ground terrain I’m thinking Red Mars/Blue Mars/Green Mars trilogy. I want to see the centre of the main city on Mars — it is clustered around a giant space elevator. To it come railroads transporting the minerals that are the source of much of Mars’ wealth.
So start with the space elevator then expand into the transportation system and all that goes with it — tracks, train stations, massive (low grav) mining equipment and so on.
Happy sunday!!
The 4 Ground stuff is amazingly good looking as usual.
I’d love to see some kind of research facility next.
And I think if they could expand with settling builngs it could be a great addition to all kinds of gaming tables. I mean buildings like transport hub, mech shop/ hangar, food growing and processing facility, command/ security station, and as someone mentionned earlier, a space tavern!!
Cheers to you all.
Happy Sunday. A short opinion on GW’s idea. They say nostalgia isn’t what it used to be 😉 Maybe this will be good, but equally maybe it will fall flat. My take is this on three of the games suggested.
Blood Bowl remains one of my favorite games and one I got from its initial release. I have lost the game after a number of moves and other personal issues, but always kept an eye in it. I think there is sufficient interest for a re-release to work if properly supported. (But GW’s (non)commitment to good products has always been a mystery to me!)
Necromunda was a great idea, but the game system was far too overly complicated and there are far better systems out there now. Infinity suits the bill better IMO.
Mordheim is great and worthy of a resurrection, but it is far too complex as a system and I think Frostgrave is far slicker and I think will appeal more to games who want this type of game.
It’s always difficult to understand the motives of a company from the outside, but on balance, while I would welcome some of these older games to come back, I agree with Warren that this seems like a grasping at an ‘easy straw’ rather than trying to find a brand new idea. Too safe? well if you are facing pressure on sales, and even more critically on IP, then your choices become limited.
I wish GW well. I hold no animosity towards them, although haven’t purchased anything from them in years. BB is possible, but nothing else they do appeals, especially at their prices. (For me VALUE is important – they ARE too expensive fro what they sell)
The Sci – fi terrain I’d like them to do as a set is the security/warehouse compound for black ops games. Infiltrating a set that is beautifully made , pre painted and ready to go out of the box would be fantastic . Especially as they always throw in the smaller items of scenery that can make a terrain piece awesome !
On principal I like the idea of specialist games making a return. My favourite GW games were from the SG range. Of course so were many others’ and thus these games have gotten newer and better successors from other manufacturers. As much as I loved BFG, I have to agree with @warzan that it won’t be anywhere near as good as Dropfleet Commander. And Necromunda will feel old and tired compared to any of current popular sci-fi skirmish games. I don’t know if they listed Warmaster as one of the returning titles, but there again Warlord have taken the idea and evolved it massively better with Black Powder.
What I fear is that GW will just repackage the old games, cash in on the nostalgia to get that temporary sales increase and then we’ll see very little support for these games afterwards.
As I said yesterday, it’s all about the complete outpost colony. So engineering bays, medlabs. Maybe a rec facility would be awesome with pool tables, a bar and the like. Would match the way they did the tavern for the Fantasy range?
4Ground should to gantries and industrial equipment to handle all those containers.
The timing of the GW announcement needs to be seen in the context of what the new companies are doing and not FFG here which operates for a different market. Just announcing this will have an effect, even throwing out a loss leader board game will be enough to sink some other lines. Also the specialist games will have a digital presence. It only needs a tiny amount of the digital audience to pick up the physical game for it to be successful for GW.
Warren is right to be cynical, but this project does not have to be long-term legs to transform the landscape again.
Necromunda might be dated, but a single box would be far more accessible in terms of models than Infinity is – and I say that as an infinity player. Infinity is great, but suffers from having to use metal minis.
Bringing BFG into the discussion at the height of the DFC kickstarter …. – and I say that as a DFC backer. I would like Hawk to succeed, they are though small and dependent on a single IP which really has no traction outside of those who know.
Talking about Blood Bowl and having a digital product out trounces Dreadbowl. Mantic is not being innovative. Privateer Press is good at what they do, but ultimately has an even narrower IP range.
Epic is bit different and this one would need a massive investment to bring in new models. On the other hand Epic would be the way to eventually do the Siege of Terran for the HH. It could make sense for FW to take this on and explore. It would also open up another line for FW.
It will be interesting to see how Spartan Games does with the Halo ground combat line – Fleet Battles does not say much because ship based games are never as popular. That will be the test to see if another company can make a long-term success with another IP. As to Lord the Rings and the Hobbit, that IP always has appeal even with no films. Much less admittedly, but probably enough for GW to be the Tolkien game manufacturer and capitalise for existing investment.
definitely a biodome to house all those beautiful trees…
I’d love if 4Ground put out more “Bladerunner-ish”, NeoTokyo themed stuff. But then I am a huge Yu Jing fan… I hope they avoid the more cliched stuff (power plants, landing pads etc.) as they’ve all been done to death and are readily available from a bunch of other companies already.
It’s slightly off topic but some precoloured stuff that’d work with the Batman Mini game would also be awesome.
As for GW, I’m glad to see the old specialist games come back but @warzan does make a good point. Simpy rehashing old concepts will no doubt be a success for GW, but I also agree that they should be pushing for fresh ideas. New boxed games based on their existing IP’s (a la Space Hulk, Betrayal at Calth etc) but new IP’s as well. I don’t think the two need to be mutually exclusive.
I see no reason GW couldn’t push into other markets/genres with (initially) self contained boxed games using their fantastic expertise in producing gorgeous plastics. If popular, they could then expand upon these with expansions while also having the potential to push the range out to full blown wargames down the line.
I think that at the moment all the talk about specialist games from GW is just speculation and we dont know what they are going to do. Maybe they will just relaunch the games as they were to bring in a bit more income but i think if i were the CEO of GW i would be looking for something that is going to draw people in to 30/40k/AoS. Maybe something more like what we have seen with execution force and Betrayal at Calth, something that plays on its own but also opens the path into the hobby if you want it. If i was choosing i would perhaps look at something like imperial assault but in the 40k world maybe using the kill team rules.
For the 4Ground next building i would like to see a communications station with lots of towers and satellite dishes. Surely those colonists are going to want to keep in touch with home?
On Arcadia Quest i am in on this one and the first one, and game is great, you get to build up your characters as you go along through the missions but the games are ended by completing 3 quests and there are only 2 PVE quests in every game. This usually means that as soon as a hero is wounded, its like blood in the water and everyone goes for them as killing a member of one of the other guilds is a quest.
On the front stage I suggested 4 ground look at an alien artefact excavation site with buried ruins and digging equipment – another idea would be a space port or shipping facility.
Mornings all, I for one am looking forward to what GW will do with their re-releases.
Nothing says they have to re-release old rules, maybe they’ll redo the rules completely and keep it within the fluff? I never played Necromunda back in the day, but if it is out of date, new rules couldnt hurt. I do like the 40K universe fluff and the idea of gangs in a Hive city.
I’ve started playing Mordheim with my group a several months ago (and write this as I wait for some archers to glue…) I thing the game itself holds up well. Its quick and still alot of fun and a good laugh.
I wouldnt mind seeing Kill Team, My group occasionally plays the HoR rules, There is easily plenty of models options for that game currently,
Regarding Hero Quest, there are lots of dungeon crawlers being released at the moment, from Mantic and plenty on Kickstarter at the moment, maybe they’re just being all hush hush…
Ultimately who knows what they’ll launch and do. Guess i’ll just have to wait and see, and carry on gaming.
Also, for terrain from 4Ground. – Industrial ? or perhaps a Starport or a helipad/launch base for some aircraft/VTOL vehicles? ? Hard to say, there is alot of choice out there at the moment.
I’d love to see a power/terra forming plant, lots of cooling towers and walkways. I’d also love to see a defensive wall/army base set like in starship troopers.
Good morning all.
Still got to download this show every week – I bloody hate computers!
I’m sure Wacoshop havge a trick up their sleeve for ‘specialist games’. I don’t trust them at all – they are just after your money. D.xxx
I loved the idea of the Cyberjacker RPG, and the reference to Lex totally sealed the deal. That show was great.
Warren makes good points about the GW throw-back releases. However I think cost is a factor, in so far as the target market now have the cash to buy what they couldn’t afford to way back when.
Side note: Forge World (if that is where these games will be bought) not really known for competitive pricing.
Good show guys!
Happy Sunday fellow gamers 🙂
For me personally games like Necromunda and Mortheim, have been the entry points to the whole Warhammer setting. You could start with a small bunch of minis and in a focused setting. Nevertheless, from the first second on, I got the impression of a vast universe and rich background to explore from there. And this was exactly the point to stay in and buy my first Warhammer and 40.000 armies. But for the last years GW had no such “entry-points” to their world. Resurrecting Necromunda might work, but Mortheim is definitely gone. So there probably should be some kind of “Sigmars Quest” or so, as a new game. I’m on Warren’s side – sticking to the past won’t solve their problems. It limits them to just do models and rules and stories over and over again, which in my opinion is just boring. I don’t believe they have to dump their whole IP’s but they have to evolve.
Writing all of this, as a gamer and collector who’s in the hobby for more than a decade, I have to repeat what I wrote several times: Play your classic games. Nobody can stop your friends and yourself to play with your cool Necromunda gang and invent a campaign, for example. 😉
In doing futuristic terrain people often forget agriculture. What about a hydroponics farm type terrain set with glass houses and large frames of artificially fed plants.
for 4Ground as a feature piece I’dd suggest a sci-fi prison camp with guard towers and cell block. Great for games breaking in/out and combines well as a secondary small protected settlement.
Preferably have them next produce an (administrative) office block. To many companies start their pieces with medical/police departments and such, however most cities/towns will have more buildings along the lines multi story offices.
unclejimmy,
Anyway morning hope I find you as well as can be expected mucker.
I aren’t arguing mate but is that not the business of any company involved in commerce to actually take your hard earned pounds shillings and pennies.
The amount of times we had to send children to go find their parents after they had been just dropped off to have the morning spent playing in our shops, we had gaming tables and upon one of them GW was played but only kids could stay if they had a parent or guardian with them over 16. Then we had annoyed parents coming in and saying why when every other GW store allowed them to stay and play as long as they wanted. We also had the painting areas and tables where people would regularly turn up with mountains of minis GW and start to paint, people we had never seen before ever. They would be most pissed if you were to say excuse me but unless you purchased it here then you cannot take the space of those that do, it was like going to Betty’s in York and getting out your flask and Greggs steak bake.
GW had to become a store and not a hobby centre to compete with the change of markets.
Like I have said many many times in the past when GW becomes an issue and that issue is they just want your moneys, they aren’t like they used to be and it is not the same atmosphere people are right it is not the same people grow move away change games and in most cases just simply move on. So no it will never be the same as some call it it’s good times because those good times were actually self defeating.
@warzan I do not agree with you on that GW-topic. If you have an IP as a company you have to use it. Because where is the sense in having an IP if you don’t try to get money out of it?
It can be the wrong way, when they just use the old Rules, but I think these guys are smart enough to polish the games up to a new feel.
And over all… it is a bit unfair to blame somebody (or in this case GW) for something they might do. We all don’t know where this whole thing will be heading to. So let’s wait and see how GW will try to revive the old systems.
I think a warehouse would be a great centrepiece for the 4Ground sci-fi terrain. Cranes, conveyer belts, containers, would provide both high and low terrain and add variation to the high on the battle field
It could be nice to see some kind of interconnected lab type building to go with the 4gound set. something like the labs in the mass effect games with large open areas connected by narrow passages, that way you could play entire skirmish games inside just the one building
Happy Sunday!
After I got over the initial nostalgia impulse of I must have these games again I’m honestly doubting I’ll be chasing any reissued GW specialist games. I’ve still got Bloodbowl, Necromunda and Mordheim and I play Dreadball, Across the Dead Earth/Deadzone and Frostgrave. Of course if they have a major overhaul to bring them up to date with what’s available these days I’d be tempted to have a look in, I just have my doubts whether that is something they’d be willing to do.
As for the 4ground set my wife has been arguing the merits of a large vehicle parking/maintenance over my initial thoughts of more of a larger vehicle (monorail/light aircraft) station. I’m going to stick with my idea, but I’m willing to put her’s into second place over a mining/production factory, large science facility or rec centre.
Happy Sunday. Great show again. Two sentry towers with a blast door in between.
4 ground should look at a landing pad would fit in well with there back story
Terrain wise this set is epic!!
What would look good is a multiplex.
so if its hab-blocks or military they are all gonna need certain things.
There should be a power plant in the middle, both solar and machine.
Then there should be the option of four add on buildings that clip straight onto the main factory. My four would be Hydroponics bay (green windows mini shelves with plants and green food on etc), a water purifying/recycling plant ( urine recycle yum!), A medical bay with beds and medical crates etc and finally BARTER TOWN! (traders in all things and from all races). :D.
Games Workshop should look into new games but release the old games as more of a “retro” feel to us collecters who maybe lost bits of the game or gave it away etc.
A bit like they did with space hulk, but without the ridicolous price tag!!! (£40 – £60 is more than enough).
When David Lewis showed up that first year at Salute and introduced Dropzone Commander, the community dropped its collective jaw. Gasping, they pointed at it wide-eyed and said, “OMG, what is this?! It’s beautiful! It’s fresh!”
When GW announced the return of Battlefleet Gothic, the response has been, “Hunh. …. That’s pleasant.”
I agree with Warren. The move smacks of desperation and a continuation of GW burying their head in the sand.
GW has for far too long ignored the state of the industry, the state of the market and competition, and the state of the customer base. They are at least 5 years behind in adapting to the market.
Another 4grounds building idea would be some sort of Large Spaceport with landed Spacetug or Heavylift cargo ship
I don’t think that anyone can really say what the specialist games studio is until they start to release something. They’ve said that they will be setting up a studio to develop specialist games and that they are looking to do something with some of their old specialist games like Necromunda, BFG, Bloodbowl etc. But there’s no details on what that something is.
I also don’t think it’s fair to say “there’s better games than available now”. That may be true, however is 20 years older than those newer ones and the updated has not yet been released and so there is no comparison to make. Necromunda, in it’s day, was an extremely fun game and it could be again with an updated set of rules. There are some very good skirmish games out there but are they the same as Necromunda? One of the great things about Necromunda was the gang management where you could improve and grow your gang between missions, something a game like Infinity doesn’t have. I think that there’s definitely a place in the current market for all of the games that have been mentioned so far if Games Workshop choose to re-release those particular brands.
I also think that if Games Workshop do make foray into the board game market and they expand their product range with boardgames that you would see them take an approach similar to Fantasy Flight where products that aren’t popular would be dropped. At the moment, I’m not sure that Fantasy Flight are a fair comparison to Games Workshop; the former is not currently a major player in the mass wargames market (X wing and Armada are not mass wargames like 40k) and Games Workshop is not currently a major player in the boardgames market but both companies, I think, are tentatively making steps into each other’s markets. I think X-wing and Armada are good examples of FF trying their hand at collectible miniatures games and Imperial Assault Skirmish rules could be considered them testing the waters at a Star Wars miniatures wargame; Games Workshop has released two boardgames in the last 12 months.
I’m not going to say whether Games Workshop should or should not be trying to get licenses for other franchises or whether they should be looking to generate new IP’s. I don’t personally think that this is necessarily an advantage or a disadvantage, it’s about what you do with the IP that have and there’s no reason why they can’t continue to build on their existing IPs; again it depends entirely on what they decide to do with them. Although I do agree that they might struggle to resuscitate the Middle Earth IP without any movies on the horizon, which is a shame because I think that the miniatures are, for the most part, fantastic.
Overall, I think the specialist games division or whatever they’re called, has the potential to be a very positive step for Games Workshop but only time will tell whether it is.
PS: Yes, if Warhammer Quest was released now I would definitely consider it and I would definitely consider it over Kingdom Death Monster (Kingdom Death, while it has some excellent looking miniatures really doesn’t do it for me). However I don’t feel that the two are direct competitors in the same way that perhaps Descent and Dungeon Saga are.
helo pad and industrial smelting facility with different levels for skirmish games
I’d like to see some warehouses and a huge sci-fi shopping mall coming out from 4Ground.
A bit of feedback on the show. I have found myself skipping through most of the kickstarter-talk for the last few weekends. For me it is a bit too much kickstarter-talk. In my humble opinion I think that maybe you should stream-line the amount of kickstarters that you talk about. Having that segment on both the open and the backstager weekender is a bit too much for me.
I do like the News-in-gaming segment, and it would be nice if you got back to showing off new stuff that has come in or that you guys have been working on. Also, I like the episodes where you have guests for interviews.
Anyway, thanks for a good show!
A large train station area could be good to play timed missions in like in Gears of War.
I am looking for more mundane expansion “fluff” or flavor buildings like watch towers, water reclamation units, garages, monuments, things like that. Buildings like at flavor and character to a gaming board rather than some single center-piece item. Much like the way the boys have added the graveyard and telegraph towers to the Team Yankee boards.
DUST Tactics scale WWII model train. Locomotive and couple of cars. Currently everything either looks bad or costs an arm and a leg.
Hilarious camping anecdotes. 10/10
Other 4Ground feature buildings I’d like to see: Shipping container loading bay, TAG hangar and train station.
this just my view on gw bring back Specialist Games for me i LOOKING for word to it i have a good reason as i am one of them at the time odes not have an income went Specialist Games is around ,there for i miss the boat that time and i am now missing the boat that i can’t get on back then, which is why i am looking foreword about it now guys do you think its possible that gw is aiming at the market for new players and guys like me then just verterent that miss it ?
Would like to see some sort of military compound, summit along the lines of the ones found in ‘Starship Troopers’
I am personally very excited about the proposed changes at GW and look forward to seeing how they are going to approach the revival of their specialist game lines…
I am still thinking that 4ground should offer different inferior sets to suit different set UPS.
4Ground should do a Space refueling station. Expand it to a fueling plant/power plant.
I would like to see something a little different for 4Ground’s first building in their sci-fi range. How about a dome-shaped research station?
For the overall design of the line, I would like more gritty rural and industrial buildings (as opposed to the increasingly common residential city stuff). Take inspiration from the original three Star Wars movies, Firefly, etc. More “Outer Rim” than Coruscant, if you please.
I have a large collection of Epic. Personally I would love if I were able to collect it again. But that is the nostalgia hit I’d be looking for. I used to love the rules for Epic Armageddon.
Bit ,late but Happy Sunday!
Okay buildings I’d like to see 4ground make a sci-fi centerpiece of, personally I’d be interested in seeing a military outpost, with walls, watchtowers and other important buildings connected by over ground walkways.
The most important thing is that 4Ground needs to open a space-bar.
Anytime you see a prepainted beastie, you have to go for it. Thank you for all the prize offerings.
BTW, I ended up backing Arcadia Quest.
Terrain wise, I’d like to see a Admin / central command building, although some kind of space bar would be great, the question though, would droids be served in your bar and how would you deal with smugglers shooting the clients.
As for GW, it can do what it wants, if it wants to bring back the classic’s it casually dropped many year before, fine. As a gamer who only played GW products when I was younger, I now have a choice. Just bringing them back with no extra ‘wow’ attached would not attract them to me. If they look good, are priced sensibly and plays well, then I may take a look. However, I think it’s a case of trying to saddle the horse after it’s bolted the stable. The genie is out of the bottle and GW is no longer the only climbing frame in the playground.
Let’s face it by this time next year there will have direct competitors for fleet action space games for battle fleet gothic to go against. Dropfleet will be fresh, Halo has the IP and video gamer market and Armada is playing with freaking star destroyers!!!!
Necromunda was a nice game to play, brought the first proper terrain in a box type game, it’s not alone now and other companies are doing terrain that’s much better and less skull based. Squad based games are a plenty to play with all the terrain that can be sourced.
The fantasy element for their IP has been binned, so the games based on it will struggle to fit, whilst they are good games, fantasy players like a good setting.
So GW will have an up hill battle to get into these markets after they left them. They had the world in their hands, they let it slip through their fingers. all I can say is good luck and may the best game win.
Perhaps 4ground should produce a sci fi loading bay and storage area for home-based transporter vehicles. A sci fi mind ing community would need one of these as would any type of corny which received supply by land.
A waste treatment plant. With loads of vats and settlement tanks. walkways over them and lots of potential hazards and pitfalls. Lots of equipment lying around as well. Belt presses and hydraulic stuff and delivery areas and loading docks for “deliveries”.
GW news and kickstarters, yeah yeah yeah yeah 😐 😐 😐 . . . the real news is in the last two seconds, and makes the whole episode worthwhile. @brennon is coming to the Team Yankee bootcamp? Aw, hell yeah! As “worth it” as this trip already was, not it’s even more so. 🙂
Can’t wait to see everyone!
@oriskany I take it you mean to write NOW not NOT 😉
Oh, yes @rasmus. That’s supposed to say “now” it’s even more so. Damn, that’s a crappy typo. Thanks for calling that out.
Happy Sunday
Want to see 4ground do water processing/power plant or a military police compound and maybe bar complex….covers most colonial incidents getting dunk and being arrested after a hard days graft also left other ideas on front stage hope they all see the light of day at some point……oh my aching wallet.
GW have always been very odd in their marketing strategies in the past so why are we all so shocked at this recent release ?
If you like GW keep buying their stuff if you don’t go somewhere else there are now a lot of other companies.
Good luck to all, we are all still recovering from a recession no matter what the politions say.
I had another think about this.
I’d say epic wouldn’t work at all, it takes away from the 28mm scale they gotten into, why sell a warhound titan for a tenner when you can sell one for whatever hundreds of pounds they sell for these days.
Warmaster could work, make it the new fantasy battles game, a big issue folk had with fantasy was the amount of models required, then to paint and also the rules were a bit dated in some folk’s opinion. Warmaster allows you to have all the old mass battles which WHF was known for, but at a smaller scale (quicker to paint and build) and more affordable with what was at the time a lovely set of rules, which could be updated.
Necromunda could also work, they do kill team and that assassins game along with new boardgame set in the 30k universe. If handled right, Necromunda has, at it’s core a campaign system for your small kill team/gang gaining experience, injuries and skills, take that experience system and apply it in a way to capitalise on all the armies across your range and it could work that way. I mean to be fair I have the outlanders rule books which have rules in there for adding nids, orks, eldar, chaos to the world of necromunda. So they could release Necromunda and have a compendium book of how to run the same compaigg but with your own army/race.
Gorkamorka should simply just exist, if you’ve never played it you need to, it’s mental and full of custom madness, release it, support it and inspire the community to go nuts with conversions and such and you have another great campaign game much like Necromunda.
Mordhiem literately doesn’t work with the death of WHF. To bring it back makes no sense to me, unless a full rewrite to fit into AOS, that might work but then there’s no point in calling it Mordhiem and count what ever they released as a brand new game that runs small scale skirmish battles in a campaign flavour like the way Mordhiem did.
Inquistor, just doesn’t fit at all, it never really worked in the first place, although the best of it’s minis were through forgeworld but RPG’s are handled outside of GWS now so again I can’t see it coming back unless done at the new 40k scale in a small board game with serious RPG heavy overtones.
Bloodbowl has the community, probably the best supported out of production GWS, I know folk who would say it never really died, to the best of my knowledge there are still tournements played! BUT, they’ve killed the world it exists in, so how do they get round that? Unless they have it as a simple side game, a board game on it’s own with a solid support from the company.
LOTR is an odd one, the movies are not there, so how much money do you pump into it to keep it alive, how much movement do they, or any one have, with playing with the IP, it’s not theirs, do they go away from the books, make stuff up etc, it’s tricky. I always prefared the idea of LOTR for the mass battles being done in a small scale, 10mm for example, so you can put down a tonne of Orcs or Gordor infantry.
How far back do they go?
Man O war re done but in line with AOS, could be a completely different game from both man O war or dreadfleet originals and is so old and forgotten and so few have played it it could almost be seen as a new game.
Hero quest, talisman, space crusade, space hulk and some I’ve forgotten I’m sure would need full overhauls, even space hulk feels slow and clunky, even with it’s nice models, play something like DOOM and you see it’s short comings.
Overall, whatever they do they need to support the damn things to get a community built around the games and an interest to flourish which is something they have a bad track record with in the past.
Another idea for 4ground Mars buildings – Space porta pottys’.
4ground could try making an exploratory outpost of various themed buildings mech/vehicle workshop, infirmary, armoury, barracks, command center all surrounded by a unique defensive fence/wall incorporating the plastics they have done with the current buildings and why not have a lighting option with it too they certainly have the skill to pull it off. geodesic domes would be a nice feature too combined with the current shapes and i would think easy to produce
I’m a big fan of clutter when it comes to Sci-fi terrain. Lots of companies get the buildings right but it’s trickier to get the right kind of street obstacles that both limit lines of fire and look right.

Little things like street lights, dangling wires, sign posts, a subway station, vendors stalls. I’d love to see kits that allow you to make those buildings look more lived in.
The other similar angle is for slums, real run down crappy areas of the future. Lots of simple small buildings with options to stack or combine. Possibly using that classic corrugated iron look and lots of rust effects.
For the current line, I think a small spaceport would work really well. A small tall building looking like it could be a control tower, some spaces that could be landing pads. Take a few of the existing buildings and add options of an extra front panel to turn it into a mechanics shop etc.
@warzan I honestly do worry about the fact that they are coming back into the market with Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Battlefleet Gothic where the market already has alternatives like Dreadball, Infinity and Dropfleet Commander. They may be able to freshen up the rules and do as you said and monetize the old molds to develop new items that we’ve never seen before. Under the old management I would think of this as just a money grab, but with the new CEO et al it may be a nice way for them to grow.
I do not care much about the specialist games. I never played them when I was younger so they do not hold any nostalgia factor to me. At worst I bit annoyed by all the old gamers going crazy about this.
Knowing GW they will release them as stand alone board games without the support to any kind of tournament system. So do not expect anything like Infinity’s ITS system or Dreadball’s seasons.
Regarding the 4Ground terrain. I would love to see a police station and a bar. A perfect setting for a western set on mars.
Games Workshop have been pretty open in the past about not actively supporting tournaments. Warhammer and Warhammer 40k tournaments are pretty much organised exclusively by 3rd parties using rules sets that are tailored slightly for those tournaments.
Happy sunday folks!
Whilst the “return” of SG to GW could be seen as a good ting, I think I’m with Warren on this one – they’re just going back to the tried and tested. Whilst I would love to see the return of official support on some of the old games, they’re just that – old games. As commented in the vid, there’s just too much competition out there now for them. Whilst I would love to see the return of WHQ, would it come back in it’s original format or rebranded as AoSQ? And why would I bother when Dungeon Saga is about to hit the shops, and Mantic saying they plan to support it long term. WHQ had 2 boxed quest expansions (plus the individual hero boxes), a couple of WD article mini-expansions and was effectively dropped. I was lucky enough to have most of the SG games at the time (young man with expendable income) but I don’t think the nostalgia trip is worth it now. If GW can prove me wrong then great! 🙂
And think 4Ground need a landing pad of some sort – if this is a terraforming setup, you dont want dust and crap getting into your engines if you can help it! 🙂
I’d like to see more alien type terrain from 4Ground. It is easy to find human like structures from just about any sci-fi terrain maker but alien structures… not so much
Happy Sunday guys!!!! Draconis Invasion looks fantastic going to be a backer now. GW should expand on Mordheim and Necromunda, expand the background the fluff, make new terrain for the games. These were two of the greatest campaign system games us old timers had, and with new material to work with could be again. Heck grab 4-Ground and let them help you produce some awesome terrain for the games. Have a great week.
Amazing 4ground terrain, would love to see a colonial police station or alien artefact chamber.
I think 4Ground should have a hydroponics area perhaps like a big Eden dome to generate food and oxygen with alien plants and trees or just rows of hydroponic vegetables.. I’d love to fight a sci fi skirmish game in a day to day space farm where we can see how the colonists live and work.
For 4Ground, how about solar arrays with transparent elements for the solar panels overlayed over non-transparent elements?
Generators, every colony needs generators! They can be built using a layered method perpendicular to the ground, kind of like a loaf of bread. Possible room for transparent pieces to be sandwiched [sorry if you make a sandwich because of this :P] between for a flowing power effect.
I would love to see 4Ground take the Sci-Fi terrain into an art deco theme later on.
nice show guys, although I think you forgot something….. But really you did ask Justin to remind you, so we know who to blame.
A tribute to all scifi would be a fine mdf-starship with a large loading bay and a few other entrances to the ship to have as a part of the battlefield. That would be awesome.
Shareholders want theire revenue, thats what I believe is whats holding GW back in its creativity. As you discussed. GW must create new systems, rules and games to get with the flow and use its fluff as support not as an ankor. Age of SIgmar should have been a “stand-alone” game, not a grave stone for WHFB as the latest example. I am not that fond of the “board-game” GW company as their games are overpriced and not that well written in comparisson to the competition. Last space hulk rulebook is in my top 5 “boardgame rules abomination” (they should evolve rules and proof read them) meanwhile Execution force was great but was wasted potential, just one mission, one level, yet very potent rules, such a shame.
I am one of those telling GW that they we’re better before. And I still think I’m right. Also I think they need to look back. But not in replicating their old games (sure some models and brushed up rules for those evergreens would be nice) but to replicate they way they created those old games. And with this create new games (even new IPs) that can blow our minds like Necromunda, Gorka Morka, Mordheim etc. once did.
4Ground needs to make an infirmary for that scifi set. A nice clean one which we can bloody up 😀
Ok, Happy Sunday Folks, so glad to see you all again please remember to get some rest this week. You all have been going a mile a minute, and with what happen last weekend , I’m afraid you guys will burn out before the boot camp. 🙂 Now on to GW what can we say that has not been said before? God I hope we are all right & I prey we are wrong. It would be nice to see GW do something wonderful with this new dept. inside FW. But to often corps. do what makes cash fast for shareholders and not what is good for us. I’ve been with this game company since The mid 80s and would love a new BFG game with up to date rules , plus Warhammer Quest with maybe a twist at the end to tie it into AoS. Like if the heroes win the old world stays the same but if they lose here come AoS, just a thought?.:-) 4Ground : with mars you need power so how about from wind the dame place has wind storms all the time. It would be nice to see a space port or maybe landing pads, add to that like @coste said a cargo hailer or large space ship of some sort. to fight over. thank you guys got to go . 🙂
I think I agree with Warren AND Ben on these specialist games – I think they’re going backwards, the games themselves no longer stand up to modern competition, and I think they’re actually just going to attach the names to thematically similar but fundamentally different board games anyway.
While I’m here, Iapygian idea: I’m torn between having a Saloon, or whatever the scifi equivalent is, and having a building dedicated to rebuilding, maintaining and housing light vehicles like buggies and bikes – a scifi equivalant of the blacksmith and stable from the pioneer towns of old western shows. I think going forward, coming up with interesting scifi analogues for the sorts of buildings you’d see in Gunsmoke, Bonanza, or John Wayne westerns is a really good direction to go.
For 4ground it would be nice with an air-port complex.
It is good news to hear that GW is starting up with specialist games again.
I would like to see foreground come out with the Pizza Shack eat a place to eat in the future
Seems like a large sprawling food processing plant could be interesting in sci-fi
Bunkers and tunnels…..or necromunda like terrain wouldn’t be bad either
A lot of the draw with the Specialist Games was the box sets that allowed you to do a one-stop purchase, but is FW really tooled for that? I also agree with the fact that rules will probably need to be re-engineered for some of the lines.
4Ground: Every colony needs a Gritty Bar, and where are people going to eat? Expand that to take-away shops or a convenience store.
Games workshop should bring out more stand alone games. Recycling old ones is ok but greating new ones with different settings would be better. Then they might be able to see which new setting is the most popular and expand on that.
4ground should make a fortified command center.
Feature piece idea – cargo handling structure. Loading docks, rail / maglev transfer hubs, cargo cranes, lots and lots of containers
So for 4Ground, keeping with the Martian theme, I would like to see a turbinium mining complex (Total Recall).
If I was the CEO at GW, I would be picking up the phone and talking to the likes of 4 ground about developing a range of terrain for 40K.
Oh yes and in my new found role I would offer to do an interview on BoW seems to be the very least I could do.
At First you have miss to say who is the winner for the Eden painted mini ??
and for the building i say it again a Command center with a lot of facility inside like Medic center , guard chamber etc… with a big helipad on the roof , and for the kikstarter i will chose it will be Arcadia Quest , i have miss the first one and one of my boddy got it so i could play it and it’s just a lot of fun game if you are not kikstart it i am sure you will regret it !!
and have a good sunday guy’s
4ground, lab or hospital
For the 4Ground range I’d like to see a military training facility, maybe shooting ranges, a simple obstacle course, barracks, armoury, mess hall, and so on. Could be part of a modular range.
For 4ground, maybe a kind of medical building or bar.
So, for 4Ground I think that if they dont like the idea of a science lab proposed yesterday I propose the administrative (HQ-type) building. It might sound dry, but it can have a lot of cool stuff like secret plans, unique pilfered alien items, and generally has a tendency to get run over by said aliens. All in all, a very handy piece of terrain to have!
Mass transportation (railroad/monorail/maglev/airpor/spaceport) depot.
I’d like to see 4 ground make a lot of things but to fit in thematically with the rest of the set
I think the next bit I’d like should be either;
A Bar – the stoic arms is amazing so a sci-fi version would be great. Every colony needs some R&R.
A satellite/communications tower – giant radar dish with a control room. Colony will need communication too.
A motor pool with some kind of rover vehicle (Unarmed mass effect Mako) would be cool too. It would give 4ground the challenge of making something not bulidingy too.
You have to love it when a GW talking point rolls around. Whether people are proclaiming their love, hatred or indifference, the comments are always buzzing!
I think reviving the old specialist games is a positive move from GW. Aside from pleasing those of us with nostalgic sides, the markets for these games are out there. The number of successful Kickstarters and Indie companies is testament to that. And those markets aren’t as nearly sown up as people might like to think. GW have more brand presence than all of their competitors rolled together. And when it comes to creating new customers that counts for a Hell of a lot. It doesn’t matter if an indie company sells cheaper minis or has a better ruleset if I’ve never heard of them.
And that tends to be forgotten on BoW sometimes. We get exposure to a huge amount of games and we can easily compare them in terms of fun and cost. But that exposure doesn’t reach beyond the net and maybe a small section of wallspace in a local FLGS. I live in Ennis in the West of Ireland. We don’t have a FLGS, but I can still walk into my local newsagents and pick up Warhammer Visions. The local bookshop sells Black Library novels. And Gamestop will have GW licensed games on it’s shelves. Hell, even when I turn on my PS4 or PC I’m looking at adverts for GW licensed products. I have friends that have never even held a miniature enjoying Blood Bowl 2. Even the muck they release on phones is advertising.
I’m not claiming Specialist Games are the way forward for GW. But neither do I think it’s simply treading water. They won’t win back many long-term gamers that have abandoned them, but I think they’ll definitely start hoovering up the new younger customer base.
I’ve said elsewhere that I do believe GW are planning to properly support these games. If they simply intended once-off board game remakes then they could have released those in-house. They didn’t need to create a new division. A new division that, if it’s release schedule is even close to it’s parent company, will soon out-strip the competition in terms of range.
And who knows, if the experiment pays off then there’s every chance we might see new games coming out from them. Get settled with stuff they know will sell, and then try something different.
for the 4ground sci fi feature piece: I think it would be great if they would make a hydroponics lab/ buildiing, where they could both have largish buildings, with lots in interior details such as nutrient vats, pipes, tubes, lab bits and bobs, and of course row upon row of growing stuff. Seeing as 4Ground make such excellent trees, this could be an excuse for making a “twofer”, by branching into shrubbery, hedgerows etc that also can be used inside the hydroponics labs.
alternatively, I would like to see a “complete crash site” with loads of scatter terrain pieces such a ruined buildings, broken crates and space ship parts,
When it comes to the specialist games division, I think it will be something of a bastard child, and am afraid it will not be given enough funds to properly redo and relaunch. I hope they do completely new and updated starter boxes that keep the spirit of the games they are to be ressurrecting (much like warzone ressurrection does).
Happy Sunday!
Enjoyed the show and I loving all the Kickstarter info that you are sharing. With regards to the Sci-fi terrain I would love to see – my first thought is a Bio Dome to produce food. You have all the core buildings but you still need to feed your people and it is a good place to get your does of “green” so to speak.
I hope GW does something incredible like warhammer quest!
I will leave the Specialist Games debate/speculation a bit if a wide berth at the moment, too early to tell, but you can guess they have 12 months to turn things around.
Wrt 4ground, I would love to see a hab-spire, with infirmary, armory, hydroponics labs and maybe a motor pool garage. That would make for some massive modular scenery, and can you image how cinematic it would be crashing through the hydroponics labs as you race to get to the armory?
Thinking more about the 4Ground buildings, they strike me as the sort of buildings that would form a frontier settlement, making me think scifi meets wild west. In that respect, I could see buildings such as a bar or sheriff’s office (complete with holding cell) working. Another option would be a communications installation for contacting Earth/the capital/etc.
Oh, and with regards to GW bringing back specialist games, I must admit that it makes me nervous.
Whilst I would like to see the old favourites revived, with the current GW I fear that they would just release a stripped down version of the game that works as a stand alone game, but doesn’t then expand up to the options that we know and love. (Imagine being told that Blood Bowl now gives you the option of humans or orcs, and none of the other races.)
Main lodge should be the first specialist building
4ground will be needing some entertainment buildings to keep those martians from getting bored. I’d say some sleezy bar to decorate with all sorts of fun NPC minis.
That moth is beautiful! Really toes the line between natural an unearthly with grace:)
On the subject of sci colony terrain, Id love to see a reactor and compound walls so I can build Hadley’s Hope and fill it with Prodos Xenos.
great show guys !!
For me, it would be great to see a space port, where travellers arrive and leave giving a whole scope to games. How many sci-fi movies feature space ports?
Great show guys and Justin was right: the first subject did take a good amount of time!
I completly agree with @warzan on his take concerning Specialist Gaming. Most of those game were good at the time but, there are better games out now…
For 4Ground, i tought of something else than my suggestions from yesterday: a radar/comms station! I don’t remember seeing something like this. It could have many levels with the comms tower with its many dishes and nice interiors.
That Draconis Invasion game looks nice, with awesome cards.
Warmaster and Epic ( either 40k or Armageddon) are still both excellent and played by a lot of people
First feature piece needs to be a space ship logistics port. Big landing pad with crates, silos and other techie industry buildings. I’m looking forward to seeing foreground continue to improve their products. Next, it would be really cool if they could do some moduler buildings that fit together in different configurations. Terra clips provided a bunch of great combinations for building, but I bet foreground could really iterate on that concept.
For 4Ground I’d like to see an Administrative building, a colony HQ if you will. Or a Hospital.
I’d like to see a green house for that sci-fi terrain.
On Specialist Games: as a gamer, I think I’d actually prefer them bringing back the old games polished up (ie the rules corrected to bring them in line with the errata/FAQ, a few of the clunkier rules streamlined, etc) than going into new avenues. I’m probably in the minority, but I’d far rather play the last itteration of Mordheim than play Malifaux or Warmahordes; it’s partly down to more familiarity with the fluff, partly down to the miniature aesthetics and partly down to the mechanics feeling more comfortable/natural. I think that’s partly why a lot of Fantasy Flight games haven’t appealed to me that much – you’re still rolling dice with them and there’s not really anything different to rolling standard D4s, D8s, etc but it feels counter intuitive to have symbols on them rather than numbers even though it’s no different to rolling a standard die and then looking up the result in a table.
Putting myself in the position of a GW executive…I think that it’s need to strike a balancing act between nostalgia and innovation. If you completely overhaul the mechanics into something unrecognisable rules wise and slap the old name on it then it kinda feels like why not just make it a completely new game? The only reason for slapping on the old name is to draw in the nostalgia crowd, but when they find out that it’s not the game they loved you risk backlash. On the other hand, as @warzan says, you can’t rely entirely on nostalgia as people who don’t have the nostalgia glasses on will probably be unimpressed and see it as nothing new. Back to the first hand though, GW’s strength lies in their IP, so unless they can think of something truly engaging for new games/IP, then it’s better to draw on the existing stuff to draw people in.
I think what might be of benefit is if some thought is put into tying the games together, whether it’s via campaign play or something that lets you play say two games simultaneously or sequentially that impact each other. Eg for 40k/30k you have Kill Team which is a variant of the Necromunda rules that lets you play small scale commando squad type games, then you have 40k/30k which is the standard battle level, then you have Epic which is the large scale/mass battle system which focuses on whole army engagements (and possibly have a variant/supplement focused on dogfighting) and finally you have BFG which is the starship combat game. If you could develop some way of tying these together you’d more easily get people to move from one to the next. It’d probably be easiest to do this via campaign rules, eg standard games would be 40k/30k, but amassing enough forces allows you to play an Epic game to truly reflect the enormity of such an action, meanwhile the Kill Team games represent surgical strikes such as assassinations and sabotages and BFG reflects the support assets (fleet actions to move troops, assault planets, etc). Depending on what game you play has an effect on the others, eg you play Kill Team to attack a power plant, success means that in the BFG game that immediately follows your enemy’s planetary defences are down making it easier for your fleet to attack and land troops, or a 40k/30k game where you attack a heavy artilliary emplacement represents the van guard trying to take out the enemy big guns and the result determines how many turns you get hit with an artilliary barrage in the subsequent game of Epic where you attack an enemy fortress.
Obviously people can do that anyway, but I think GW actually tying them together will encourage more people to do so and thus make them more likely to expand into the other games.
And it’s not limited to 40k/30k. Bring back Fantasy as one of the specialist games and then you have Warhammer Skirmish (a Mordheim variant) as the small scale adventuring party and scouts, Fantasy Battles as the main game, Warhamster as the mass combat game, and Man o’ War (full fleets not a dozen character ships like Dreadfleet) as the naval support game.
I suppose the issue then becomes, how much to keep the same and how much new mechanics/innovation to introduce. The danger you have is probably best showcased by the Star Wars Prequels – lots of hype before hand and nostalgia was almost certainly responcible for the bulk of the money Ep1 made, but the changes disillusioned the nostalgia crowd which negatively impacted the success of the next film; adding new mechanics to the existing games or replacing them outright but keeping the name risks the same thing happening :/
After that ramble, onto the Kickstarters. Arcadia Quest looked somewhat interesting, but not enough to get me to bite, especially as I have Dungeon Saga so don’t really feel the need to branch out into another dungeon crawler. The others are meh. Like Warren, I don’t find the RPG one engaging. As for the other two I’m not that keen on card games to be honest; I don’t mind cards as a supplement to a miniatures game, but a whole game just on cards doesn’t interest me to be honest. Something silly and quick like Flux is okay, but otherwise they don’t really grip me. Shame as the artwork for the last one you showed looks really nice.
4ground should make a Hydroponic farm in some nice domes. They need to eat after all
4ground should do a tall, multi-level building. Generally it would be good if the buildings can be stacked on other buildings.
I would really love to see 4Ground make some industrial terrain with ladders and walkways – similar to the original Necromunda terrain – in order to make the higher ground accessible.
Happy sunday! Like I said in frontstage I would Like them to build something like outpost wishkey from starship troopers. And maybe in the future something more industrial like a production plant with transferbelts on poles (off the ground) that you can use to move on.
Loved Nexromunda. Love Deadzone more. Liked 40k but going to love Warpath.
G w biggest asset is its infrastructure they can get games out to the public very quickly , they would get more footfall in there stores if as a game i can go to there store to pick up the latest game plus there is the try before you buy aspect ..
with games like kingdom death monster you can’t and it is sold out because yes its a great game but the company that produces it is small .
G W do need to expand there range of boardgames and refresh the rule sets too !
well its nearly the end of my Sunday, when i got to your Sunday morning chat show.
WHAT
Games Workshop bringing back possible goodies.
Then i thought.
Only work if them games change the names and put a new spin and upgrade the rules of a few they have had good returns on, but to change the names to ????
They have always had good ideas in our past,
4 Ground, could think on the idea of the wild west/punk/Sci-fi/fantasy looking buildings for Warmachine/Malifaux village. (towns). Look at any good old western film.
How about a mining colony, we see lots of city`s – town`s and even had the odd shanty. So think it`s time for something a little different, thinking on they could even go with a construction site now that would be a great scenery piece to play on.
As for GW bringing there “Special Games” back through forge world, in my opinion is to little to late. When they decided to pull the plug (so to say) was the biggest mistake they made, they let a lot of gamer`s down and it`s gonna take a miracle to win them all back. I for one won`t be going back, main reason being i don`t wont to be let down again by them. Don`t fancy spending more hard earned, just to be kicked in the teeth at a later date.
Great show guys only just got round to watching it…… My opinion on GW is that the the hobby doesn’t need GW anymore.
So the terrain loving it on front stage I thought a bio dome would be awesome and still do but for backstage I think it would be great to have a massive terraforming building/ complex……
On the topic building a bio-dome projector, a control station or a miltary compound.
About gw I don’t know wether if they are trying too get new people with the special box or keep their existing fan base coming to their store
Great show guys the newish? GW announcement may be the start of their skunk works starting with revamping old the game’s then designing new games for the future. @warzan I think that GW may go for the silmarillion as it go’s with the current thinking of big powerful figures with army’s of balrog’s & dragon’s squaring up to attack elf cities?
Arcadia quest looks good.
Mindjammer looks indistinct not giving much of the game details.
All hands on deck looks ok.
Draconis looks good as Lloyd says the artwork looks brill.
for 4 ground I think they should make a food dome for the base
Hmmm would a landing pad work. I still think a tag fab facility, garage would work well for infinity.
gotta be a prison compound, why else would you bother with Mars!
4ground should make a grim looking mining area/shanty colonists area, kinda like the area from Total Recall with a seedy bar, maybe even make an exclusive 3 boobed miniature!
4Ground should do a hydroponics farm or a Greenhouse type of building. That is what I would be looking for building on Mars.
I can’t wait for epic 30/40k to get back into the market also Bloodbowl they were the greatest and they still hold a big piece of my heart.
Brother G
kinda wish I didn’t watch this episode is a bit depressing
4Ground could make a quonset vehicle garage/hangar for all those sci-fi vehicles to park and be maintained. Sorry, the Mindjammer video made me come away with how acclaimed the game was but gave me nothing on how it was played. Maybe, if you guys would give chibi painting tips, I could get interested in Arcadia Quest: Inferno but, right now, all the chibi games scare me off with large expanses of flat skin to paint well.
HAPPY SUNDAY!
The 40K universe. Having been an avid wargamer for some twenty odd years, who associates with like minded individuals. I can honestly say (in my gaming group at least) no one plays 40K because it’s a great game, it’s played for the love of the universe and recreating the epic battles that are described in the fluff. Without a doubt a campaign based 40K skirmish would be massive. Look at the cult following INQ28 has.
On that subject for the scenery comp how’s about a sci-fi shanty town?
4Ground should do a hospital/medical complex. You could have all the patient rooms, surgical wards, labs, maybe even some kind of cryogenic statis/cloning lab.
Woohoi ny firat gommen as an Backstreet. Great show as always
With autocorrect in it arena. . 🙁
4Ground should make some shops and fast food type buildings so the residents have some were to shop and work at while giving the table the feel of an urban city area.
Command center…nuff said!
I wouldnt support the specialist games in their current state? Why? Because the mechanics are not up to scratch imho – if they were id still be pkaying the systems (full thrust i still play, for example). If they reimagine the rules and do a twist on the originals, this will interest me. However, there are plenty of excellent systems out there these days (BA & BTGOA).
Another specialist unit id like to see is a machine shop – cant get v far without one of those in the future!
I am afraid we think specialist games were great because we didn’t have other options back then. Now Infinity may be considered much more comprehensive than Necromunda. For Mordheim there is a Spanish rulebook called ‘The circle of blood’ (Círculo de Sangre) that is astonishing. You get even more ‘roling’ feel than Mordheim when playing.
First off: As on frontstage, I’d like to see a communications array for the 4Ground terrain. In the future I would like to see them do some modern era 15mm or 28mm suburban buildings. Things Like fast food joints, gas stations (petrol stations?), trailer parks, etc.
I don’t have the ability to organize my thoughts to type all the things I’m thinking about with the specialist games news, but I will say that I hope FW goes 15mm with Epic 40k. Then we will have multi-scale 40k like Bolt Action and Flames of War are for WWII. And GW will own both systems, unlike Warlord or Battlefront.
I don’t think GW NEEDS to innovate outside the 40k universe. It’s a superb fictional world equal to the greatest ever conceived. They just need to innovate with the games set in the universe.
I think that the new games will most likely be Forge World in name only. They’ll be big box sets with plastic minis and only if a given title sells really well will there be any further releases to support it. That the return of the ‘specialist games’ aspect has been overplayed and the new studio will be producing new titles at least as much old titles. That if they do bring back an old game it will be a reboot rather than reprinting.
Essentially, I think what we have here is a formalising of the occasional big box release which started happening with the Space Hulk release in 2009 and which has ramped up with the Space Hulk re-release, Assassinorum, and BaC. The focus on the core lines to recover from the LotR crash worked for a while, but when it stopped working it meant GW’s heavy dependence on 40K in particular became a weakness. If sales dropped on that line, there was nothing to prop them up. A couple of big box releases per year can help with that. By making them one-off purchases and keeping them out of the stores they can still have 40K be the cash cow and not risk diverting new customers that would have otherwise picked up 40K.
A quick aside on LotR, I don’t think this is the great news for that line that some folks think it is. There’s no way GW would have been allowed to renew the license for five years and not do anything with it. When GW shunt a game line from their main creative team to a studio it means that fewer resources are being dedicated to it. The best case scenario this news has for that line is that it could remain viable for GW beyond the expiration of the current agreement. I don’t think it means more releases during the current agreement and it confirms that this is a line that no longer warrants a store presence.
Finally, and as was touched on in XLBS, if GW want these games to be competitive in the wider tabletop gaming market and not just be bought by those who have already bought into the brand, then they need to make sure they invest time and resources into making them good games, and not just fancy packaging to sell minis. From a gameplay point of view, Assassinorum has been one of the most anonymous games of 2015. I hardly ever stumble across people who actually play it, let alone who really enjoy it and play it regularly. As that game was mainly an excuse to sell 40K minis then it falls within their outlook of people buying for the minis and for the IP but not for the game, but a specialist games division that is focused on self-contained games needs to have the gameplay as a selling point. Even when the game can reboot an existing specialist game that did have more effort put into the gameplay at the time, they can’t rely on that to produce a good game given how dated they are. The biggest concern I would have about this new division, as opposed to how it reflects on GW as a company, is that they’ll churn out a bunch of Dreadfleets if they don’t change their approach to games design.
Also, I would like to see 4Ground do a chain of fast food restaurants for their sci-fi line.
Actually, thinking of entries for the two competitions this weekend has kinda crystalised my dissatisfaction with this range. Although Fabled Realms had an obvious design inspiration in Fable, the result was still a range that was unique, looked amazing, and which took MDF terrain design forward by several steps. These sci-fi buildings, on the other hand, just take the existing common-or-garden block-building design and give it a polish. It’s still 4Ground and so the polish is a very nice one, but it feels like a missed opportunity to have some truly new and interesting sci-fi MDF-scapes.
None of which is to say I don’t want to win them, so please don’t hold this against me lol
I’m struggling to think of anything that’s better than Mordheim still hey, such an awesome game, that still has a great following online.
Still think a massive Bridge as a center piece in that terrain would look amazing all lite up
I am with you guys. I would be very hesitant about specialist games for a reason.
Firstly I loved specialist games before they were called specialist games because they were quicker to play than the full blown wargames, very campaign driven and did not involve a large amount of money to get into.
Now we have forgeworld behind the production I don’t believe affordable will be in the credo although I am sure the miniatures will be grand
I agree they will need to work on the rules to bring them up to the playability of modern skirmish games and pull the interest of old players back who have by now invested time and money in something new.
There will be from the older set such as myself …a very sceptical crew who have seen these games supported, dropped, rebirthed, supported again, and dropped again… Etc. I want to invest in something that has long term support and a growing storyline.
As someone who grew up playing and loving games like BattleTech, going back to the them is god awful and like going back and watching a TV show you thought was hilarious when you were 13 and realizing it was actually utter crap .. 🙂
Not saying those old games were but if you have gotten used to the slick play and style of modern games. Without a solid re-boot and great rules writers I think nostalgic support is all that may be garnered.
Personally I have fallen into the Mantic worlds and have just bought the Kings of War II hard back book and some undead and I am happily impressed with the detail, quality and price, enough so that I am not even really looking at what GW does these days. Which is a little sad as someone who bought into it back in the Rouge Trader days and through until about 2 additions back.
When you have disenfranchised your followers you will be hard pressed to win them back.
40K epic, hell yes, can’t beat that!
Just following on from what people have said.A lot of the older games out there still have a good following and I am just not talking about GW games. Hundreds if not thousands of people still pay Battletech if you go by FB pages, tournaments run etc. Epic has always kept on going through the pages of Tac Command and they are doing an excellent job. Warmaster still has a huge following round the world in both its fantasy and ancients format. As does and just of the top of my had Dirtside, Stargrunt, Alien Squad leader and even games like WRG 6th ancients released what must be 40 years ago are still played regularly in competitions. There is certainly a place for these older games and I haven’t seen anything truly new in games mechanics recently that I haven’t seen before over the last 40 years
the new 4 ground buildings are nice, what I would like to see is a military station / law enforcement building.
A shopping mall would be sweet
This set would go really well with the Hexagon mill tech city terrain which i recently got from kickstarter, I would say this foreground set needs some really large satelite dish arrays. There are just not enough of those around for 28mm sci fi games.
I think 4ground should look to build up a ‘community’ set of buildings. The sought of things that you would find in most small towns or interplanetary outposts. Such as local shop, warehouses, school. If you head down the mining route, then some sort of dingy bar and maybe a ‘den of ill repute’. Maybe even a cinema or entertainment complex (not to be confused with the ‘den of ill repute’).
As for GW, I have a certain amount of sympathy for them as they have to act in a different way to other games companies simply because of their share holders. They will demand returns on the investment and consequently they have to take a lower risk approach to some moves. Sweating the old IP will help boosts sales and ROI while allowing the company some time to develop new IP. In effect, if the old IP just pays the bills while new stuff is worked on, then I would view that as a success for GW.
Besides, I’m looking forward to what they could do with Blood Bowl. Perhaps just a good set of minis for the game as the rules are pretty spot on as they are.
Great show, as usual.
Two weekenders in one day for me!
GW: I mostly agree with @warzan
But here’s something: When the Mordheim and Total War: Warhammer PC game trailers launched many people (I’m sure Warren was one of them) were saying “Why release all these games when the company that owns the IP doesn’t support them any more?” Well here it is – they do. Or they will be again, rather.
I’ve been thinking about this a fair bit since I heard the announcement, all I can think is: given all that GW has done with the company structure and their IP, it doesn’t feel right to say they’ll just re-release those old games with new minis. Updated versions are where GW need to be, but even then those games need to funnel players into the main products, 40k and AoS somehow.
“Necromunda” that builds a gang into an army. “Mordheim” that explores the new AoS realms.
Lord of the Rings is bigger than the movies, though they are the biggest, most “visual” draw – the Silmarillion, and a whole plethora of “expanded universe” (for want of a better term) novels, stories etc. are there for GW to explore, if they want to or have the licencing. But what about other IP? Here are all these other companies, “smaller” companies, picking up big IP – AvP, Terminator, even Dr Who is bigger than 40K. GW need to be going after something like this.
I loved all those old games, I’ve yet to find a team building/ gang building XP/ management system like Blood Bowl or Necromunda, except maybe Kingdom Death. (Oh and @warzan yeah Kingdom Death, but really they are different games, scratching different itches).
I wouldn’t buy them again though. Not as they were. I don’t have the time any more, I don’t have the money. If I really look hard enough I can find all I need to play those games again, for free…
Many of these games still have thriving communities, they don’t really need GW methinks. Most of us are aware I’m sure of the many other companies producing “fantasy football” teams. I’d bet that GW are aware of them, so what are they going to do about it?
It smacks a little of a kid who took his bat and ball and went home, then looked out the window, saw all the other kids still having fun without him, and came and asked if they wanted to play with him…
A second contribution to the 4ground suggestion pool – a re purposed lander vehicle. The first landing vehicle, converted to the first home base, which has since been built up on over time, yet still retains clear indications of what it was.
I would love to see a air purification platform or power generation facility as a feature piece
How about a communal area/sensorium and the overground doorway to a subway or transport hub
I’m not sure what to think about the specialist games… I already play 2 or 3 non-GW skirmish games which I find really good and I don’t intend on starting new ones. The only game I used to play (and still play to this day) is Blood Bowl.
What I like about Blood Bowl is the fact that you can take whatever miniature you want to build/convert your team and that the community has taken over the rules. There are still international championships every year for this game…
They’ll have to come out with an awesome new idea for game mechanics if they want to win back their old fan base to which they flipped the bird a couple years ago…
4Ground stuff I’d like to see:
– Water treatment facilities and pumping stations
– Greenhouses and silos
– Wind turbines and power generators
To be honest, I have no idea if GW can recover if they keep going at it this way. The market is so fractured these days that there just isn’t any space for 1 big game. There is space for big companies, but I think only if they diversify, like Fantasy flight (or should I say Asmodee) is doing these days. So more diverse games on the same IP is a good start (which is why I like the 30K stuff or the assassins board game),but there will have to come a time where they step away from only doing miniatures games if they want to follow that path. And they should look into making or buying into some other IP as well, because people will get bored of the same old stuff rehashed over and over again.
As for the foreground stuff: In addition to the shopping mall mentioned in front stage, I rather like the idea of some kind of public transportation hub. Be it a bus station, a (maglev) train station or even a space shuttle station. Especially if 4ground finds a way to do vehicles with that. I am craving for a 4ground spaceship or maglev train.
Happy Monday!
I would love to see a medical facility or a power station done in the style of an oil rig.
Good show guys, for the 4ground specialist buildings I’d like to see a cool municipal style office building , big like the one they storm in the Matrix that you could battle up, also for that more Total Recall experience an airport style building with scanners etc to go through and sneak past security or smuggle something through undetected. With those nice detailed acrylics you could create some cool internals X-Ray booths etc – would be something different and could lead to other things like landing platforms for your flyers etc like the ones Antenociti have been putting together for Infinity.. Would also like to see a terraforming power plant type building, could also support that with with cool pipes and other scatter scenery that “bolts”on to show stuff going into or coming out of the ground. One things for sure, forget the “get to the choppa!”, Get your A&$E to Mars 😉
I think a hydroponics building would look neat. 4ground have shown they can do great looking trees already.
These new 4ground would be good for Infinity too. I’d like to see a scientific station, maybe different bits can drop in, making a lab or hospital etc.
Babylon 5 was and still is awesome! Go rewatch it. Yeah the pilot is flawed, but make yuorself watch season 1 all the way through. You can’t judge it on the strength of one episode.
As for the competition and terrain, I’d love to see a spaceport or space elevator platform, a med centre, a comms tower, huge mobile science stations / mining / terraforming vehicles, and some perimeter walls, or perhaps the outside of a biodome that goes over the whole town while they grow the atmosphere. Obviously only represent the bottom 10 foot. Perhaps a giant drill platform/well for accessing deep underground water sources or geothermal energy.
Babylon 5 is excellent
4ground: something with lots of superfluous fans, give it a real sci=fi movie feel.
As for GW well I’m clearly more cynical than you. My fear is this is a WalMart/Tesco business move and not a new/old direction. Essentially I fear this is more about hurting the bottom line of their growing rivals many of whom have products which stepped in to void left by specialist games demise.
As Warren points out they can afford to run a division for no profit or a small loss, if it concurrently breaks some rivals forcing/encouraging the consumer back to Warhammer.
I think these specialist games need new rules. So many of them have been … renewed? Remixed by other companies – not least Mantic but not just Mantic either.
Based on Dreadball vs Bloodbowl, it’s so much smoother; so much quicker; so much less infuriating. It’s not perfect but I think Bloodbowl is showing its age.
I think this is potentially a great move for GW and a great move for us gamers. I’ll watch them with interest but I’d like some more modern rules.
I would love to see 4ground flesh out the story of mars, how about the spaceship that brought the people there. A giant lander or even drop ships used as a “first” base on Mars
A hydroponic plant from 4ground.
In the future a mining complex or a spaceport.
Great show, but what happened to the Eden prize ?
GW to bring back Dark Future, that would be cool.
@warzan warhammer forge released two really nice books, but it appeared at the point interest started to wain in fantasy so it never came to much. Which was a pitty as the Throne of Temakan was and still is a really nice product.
It could be worth gw, going really back to there roots and looking again at Dark Future.
A good centre piece for 4ground would be a landed spaceship on the same scale as the stoic arms, allowing players to explore and capture different rooms.
On front stage, I said I’d like to see a repair facility. On back stage, I’m going to say mono-rail. this would be a larger piece, but make a couple of stations and a rail to put between them supported by a couple of towers. Make the terrain below difficult to pass, and have movement available along the rail via a gantry catwalk.
Here’s my take:
I fully agree (with Warren) that a company needs to innovate to stay relevant.
However I do not see how this is in contradiction with having a specialist range for older titles. GW has two types of customers: new ones and older nostalgics. Why would you want to give up on the latter group? They may generate less revenue but they are enthusiasts who will keep playing the games and create visibility for the company. And you can retain them at very low cost by just having a couple of specialist boxes in the range.
This is called heritage management.
I don’t think that a dedicated specialist product workgroup is the answer here though. Better to just make the still acceptable old specialist games models available again, give out the rules for free and let the people convert, build and “game in the gaps”. Easy, cheap and everyone is happy.
And thus GW will have freed up resources to innovate somewhere else.
The problem is not the revival of specialist games and the worry that it is not innovative. In my eyes the problem was axing the specialist range in the first place. Now GW is just trying to right a wrong. Only it might be too late. Future will tell.
Only problem, that would require GW to loosen its death grip on its IP…
4ground should create a modular stackable pod based sci fi system. would work as space station/hulk interiors and as a compound on a planet, if they made bridges and walkways which can connect to the pods that would be perfect. Basically i want something i could reconfigure to play 40k, infinity, necromunda, and space hulk with. The pods would make it easy to add different themed and objective specific rooms. as a starter for ten i would want:
Bridge/Comms room
Infirmary
Cargo hold/store container
Landing pad/hanger
Small, medium and large pods (shells to make what you want with)
Corridors/Gantries
Elevator/Cargo lift
Comms tower/vertical shaft (detachable comms array on a square tube)
Reconfigurable partition walls (think zone mortalis)
the terrain looks so sweet, habitation cluster or solar farm would look great
Just a little bit late to the party this week, I have to agree with @radegast6 about the KS segment, it really needs its own slot ( just to add an idea to your workload guys 😀 ) as the number of great KS starting up seems to expand by the day.
I look forward to more news of the new SG division in the next 18 months / 2 years. I will admit it clicked my nostalgia button, as I played all those great games ( Necromunda and BFG to mane two ) as a teenager and look forward to being able to play these fantastic boxed games again.
4Ground building for me would be a large greenhouse type building where the settlers on Mars would be growing their crops for counsumption. All the greenery inside would be a nice contrast to all the budding a and give you interesting terrain to fight through.
Buildings even
Happy Punday!
4Ground should do a hospital. We need an epic Sci-Fi hospital. Also, I think they just need to keep with the established look.
Some sort of mining structure would be cool, maybe just to release that insect demon into a sci fi world. But that space bar that @nemesisrising previously mentioned sounds really cool too
As far as GWs specialist games something totally new would be great, even using same IP. Nostalgia doesn’t draw new customers well and its harder to drive a business forward with one foot always in the past. There are so many new ideas and game mechanics that would work within 40k or AoS worlds. GW needs a team dedicated to new and original, I am glad to see the older games possibly coming back because I never played them in the past, but they don’t have that “Wow, that looks Awesome!” appeal. Especially when comparing BFG with Dropfleet, I used to want to get into BFG but that itch has been satisfied now
Again another fun fact show guys. 4Ground have done it again, maybe for thesenew scifi buildings they could build corridors to join the buildings;maybe just like the ones from the film ALIENS and then we could have scenerio battles ysing AVP by PRODOS jyst like from the film.
Hmm, another terrain thought for the XLBS – an atmosphere generator
4Ground should make an futuristic airfield set, hangers, ordnance and fuel bunkers, landing pads, radar stations etc. This could make a great setting for scenarios set around the theme of the airfield facility.
and… Arcadia Quest: Inferno looks awesome!
I would like to see a communications tower or something similar.
HOLY MOLY! when did mig get back!!??!?
in the thoughts of the GW stuff, their video games side of things is a bit dire (have you seen how many companies are using their IPs?)
Mindjammer – TURN YOUR MUSIC DOWWWWWWN!!!!!!!!
I’d also like to see a medical / research facility, perhaps crossed with a hi-tech jail or different kinds of cells for holding criminals and local beasties.
I may be in the minority, but I would rather hear about hobby time than a bunch of Kickstarter campaigns. I’ve got way too many games as it is, and as Lloyd says, we all have plenty of miniatures to paint already.
How about actively timed doors? As in, after X amount of seconds/minutes doors X will open and then close X time later? Would be cool for tense firefights/sieges.
My backstage suggestion for 4ground would be to create a transport hub, a futuristic equivalent of Central Station or the like.
If the return of Specialist Games means a rehash of the old games I think it’s a wasted effort. There are indeed better games out there that have filled the void. I’ve just converted some friends who were jumping up and down at the prospect of playing BFG over to the DFC Kickstarter. New and improved game by the same game designer; That’s difficult to beat. The other specialist games suffer the same. Bloodbowl -> Dreadball, Necromunda -> Infinity / Mercs, Mordheim (okay, I might still play that one) -> Malifaux / Carnevale.
I sure hope GW has better plans for their new department. If they go down the boardgame route, or meybe a complete re-imagining of the tabletop games it might have a future lasting longer than a year or so.
And to pitch in on the 4Ground contest. It was already mentioned by Justin in frontstage, but I do think a mining facility would be the best next step for this Martian colony. It could include some mine entrances you could play as being interconnected (troops moving from the battlefield at one end and popping up somewhere else a turn later. It also allows for some cranes or towering mining drills. The way I envision it the modules are either very close to the ground or very tall, expanding the height diversity of the range.
I would like to see the Beasts of War studios as a specialist building with an ice cream van parked outside!
@warzan Am I being slow or did you say on fron stage you would announce the winners on backstage and then not?
For the 4ground terrain I would like to see a science/research/med lab.
I’d also really like to see battle worn & damaged buildings. More than the basic corner ruins we see everywhere else. Whole buildings with caved in roofs, blown in walls etc.
On you description of GWs specialist games and there now being better games doing the same thing, I mostly agree. From what I’ve seen of Dropfleet, I don’t think BFG will keep up in its old form.
Same with Mordhiem – Frostgrave, Epic – DZC.
The ones I think don’t have a modern equal are Bloodbowl and Necromunda.
Bloodbowl does have some competition from the likes of dreadbowl, but that’s sci fi. There isn’t another good fantasy football game where you can smash Orcs with Mummies, or flip elves over dwarves.
There are plenty of good skirmish type sci fi games, but in my opinion nothing (at least that I’ve seen) that does what Necromunda does. Necro is the greatest game I’ve played for true narrative campaigns. When I first looked at infinity I had high hopes, but campaign rules and growing expansion of games getting bigger and bigger left me disappointed.
In necro every single mini counts. Each person gets a name, as the campaign progresses everyone advances, gaining specialisations, you can swap gear freely.
You also get territories that can be stolen, swapped, bought during a campaign. In a well run campaign the story can be told through a campaign newspaper. In my campaigns this has been used to introduce campaign NPCs, traveling hired guns, storylines and more.
I’m yet to see a game which offers as much as Necro.
I would love to see a sci fi bar. Be Kewl to see them do some alien buildings, hi tech and bizarre architecture.
I wouldn’t mind seeing some sort of brig or a cell block for holding sci-fi ne’r-do-wells. A prison break scenario could be good fun. It would be nice to see them expand the range into things that would make good objectives like research facilities or production plants etc.
I look forward to the return of the specialist games, unfortunately I don’t think inquisitor is on the list to come back. Inquisitor in my opinion was one of the greatest games ever. I will miss it, but I miss not having the ability to play around with models on that scale, however I think the industry has gotten to the point where you could do the same things you did with inquisitor models with 28mm guys because of the amount of convertibility with those guys in the GW range.
Also if I was to use the terrain I am not to sure, most properly use it for 40k game.
My first idea for bloodbowl…..plastic teams covering all races up to same standard as new age of sigmar models and as add ons you can get different shoulder pads with specific team emblems on like forge world do for space marines.
I disagree regarding LOTR running its course, you just have to look through EBay to sales continuing on OOP items. Imagine if GW themselves wee still producing these. Just this week I’ve picked up the Attack on Weathertop box and Sharkey
I am glad to see the potential return of all the specialist GW games. I only hope they are re-released rather than re written. Yes other games have filled gaps in the market but I know numerous players who continue to play Mordhiem and Necromunda.
GMing is indeed an odd skill set requiring planning but being able to be flexible. I tried my hand at it a lot, and wish I could have got better at it.
I would hope for specialist games to be done in plastic, but if it’s through FW it will probly be resin. 🙁
Though if there’s a boxed game of Titans vs Titans (especially with the new Warlord design but also including the Reaver, Warhound, etc) I’d buy multiple boxes to make a Titan Legion of about a dozen Titans each for both Imperium and Chaos.
The thing I’ve noticed, and maybe GW is thinking too, is several companies bringing out their game in multiple scales, eg. Dropzone Commander is the Epic equivalent and now is branching into Dropfleet – where you can have linked games.
Same with Firestorm universe – there is Firestorm Armada and now Planetfall, and also a 28mm scale game coming too – all designed to link together…
Which is awsesome
– and GW used to have that!
40K, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic – all linked by Planetary Empires – but they dropped it all – and it’s only since they did so that these other companies have come to fill in the niche.
I would never have gotten into Planetfall if Epic and BFG were still around. I’d never look outside of GW’s 40K universe if they supported the scope they have, and had…
On another note, I don’t get card games.
Miniatures or gtfo… 🙂
Very interesting xlbs.
I disagree with warren on the star wars tabletop idea. I’d love someone to release a tabletop star wars game, probably 15mm so that you can field large droid armies etc. I’d love a droid, wookie or clone army. It could combine land and air. A bit drop zone like or flames of war like but unique as you could still have characters with force powers as solos that would be powerful within their local area but not solely the key to success in an objective based game.
As for 4ground. I’d like to see a central large hydroponics unit with plenty of plastic covering. It could have walkways and tunnels leading to other parts of the base.
Design wise I’d suggest they develop buildings for it that utilise local materials I.e. From that planet. So if on Mars for example the buildings might have large red earth banks on one side or be built into the rocks. Buildings meet terrain. People could colourer them differently based on the background of their chosen planet scape (ice, red earth, dried lava flows etc)
A nice bar with a place you can put up your CMC armor and relax with a good mug of beer.
“somewhere where the ideas can free flow…” somewhere over the rainbow @warzan when it comes to GW I am afraid and I am really a fan of GW products. I just want to see Mordheim back 🙁 but seriously I agree with Warren and Ben on most of the stuff.
I agree with everyone who initially thought the new 4Ground sci fi buildings (lapygian) were ok until we watched the frontstage weekender and was completely mind-blown with all the small details on the buildings.
For new 4Ground buildings, how about a recycling plant that takes all those shipping containers sent to Mars and converts them into the lapygian buildings?
Definitely would like to see a hydroponic farm. Food for the future!
Would be great to 4ground to do some kind of parabollic anthena array or roket/spaceship launch facility, for building some outside elevators with trasparent acrilics.
Can anyone help me find the interview the guys talked about with the makers of blood bowl and the game designer process?
http://www.beastsofwar.com/designers-studio/designers-studio-rick-priestley-gates-antares/
http://www.beastsofwar.com/designers-studio/designers-studio-jake-thornton-part-1/
http://www.beastsofwar.com/designers-studio/designers-studio-alessio-cavatore-loka/
http://www.beastsofwar.com/designers-studio/designers-studio-ronnie-renton-mantic-games/
http://www.beastsofwar.com/designers-studio/designers-studio-rick-priestley-gates-antares/
Not sure _exactly_ which one they were referring to, but these guys all worked at GW at some point in the past. Hope it helps!
4Ground sci-if interior shuttle bay would be useful.
For 4Ground, after making a space port I think I would next want to see some kind of futuristic laboratory.
GW and Specialist games… I think it really depends on just what GW want to do and why. I do think with GW things were better ‘in the old days’, but that’s not just because of the games. The company was more inclusive, innovative, friendly and responsive. If specialist games are an attempt to recreate the relationship they used to have with the community, that’s a very good sign, and bodes well for the future of the company.
Although I think it does depend a bit on price. It’s not that @warzan is wrong about people finding the money to buy what they want somehow. It’s about customers feeling like they’re getting value for money and aren’t be exploited.
That they’re hiring new people could be a good sign. It could be specifically to get new talent and fresh ideas into the company – people who will take very successful IP and give them modern game mechanics. If they modernise the games, make the most of their IP, root what they do in the community and don’t rip customers off, I think that’s the recipe of success.
At least in the short-medium term. They may still need to develop an entirely new IP, though that will only succeed if they’ve changed the culture of the company first, and specialist games could be used to help them achieve that change. I’m actually pretty sceptical about them – or anyone else – being able to produce a ‘new 40K’ on the scale of the current one. I think the market is more fragmented, customers expect more involvement and society is different.
I also think that trying to create a new IP might be no more successful than relaunching an existing one. I think 40K is actually crying out for a new start. A completely new and modern set of rules, a new focus on campaigns and community involvement in the storyline, etc. It would be difficult to do, but if they did it well (and again, combined it with lower prices), it could work at least as well as trying something new.
Plenty of people say there’s too much competition for many of the specialist games to succeed. If GW handle this wrong, the naysayers will be right. But that competition only exists because there is a significant market for fantasy and SF skirmish games, fleet battle games, and so on. GW have a tremendously well-known and still well-loved IP, they have the resources to produce fantastic plastic sprues. If GW re-entered the market for these kinds of specialist games and did them well, there’s no reason why they wouldn’t be tremendously successful.
Sorry, why they _couldn’t_ be tremendously successful. See my other post about them also needing to get pricing and community support right if they want to succeed.
My concern about Specialist Games lies in GW’s focus on miniatures rather than rules. Hire some of the best games designers in the industry and then thoroughly playtest what they come up with (whether it be ‘Blood Bowl’, ‘Epic’, or something entirely new), then I would be interested. Rush out products based on nostalgia, then I will give it a miss. Privateer Press’s handling of the transition from ‘Warmachine’ and ‘Hordes’ Mark 1 to Mark 2 set a gold standard for fantasy tabletop wargames for me. If any company is likely to become the next major player in the industry, my money is on them.
In terms of 4ground terrain, I would like to see a scientific research facility.
With 4ground I’d like to see a biodome. The only GW rereleases I’d want to see are epic 40k and adeptus titanicus. Bloodbowl turnovers bother me too much and I’d rather play guildball. Something new(ish) would be epic 30k with all the new vehicles and primarch units.
Finally got a chance to finish watching this.
Re: the GW news, it’ll be interesting to see what comes of it. How fast can they release the half dozen or so games that people care about the most? And will any still care if they’ve already moved on to other non-GW games that filled those niches?
As for the sci-fi terrain, like I said on front stage, it’d be cool to see a large medical facility.
A solar power grid or a 4D stage for acting!
There;s to be a new way to play miniatures, maybe NFC tech. And the use of a display. Maybe they;d come with something to paint minis even if you suffer it.
I for one am well excited about the possibilities from Specialist Brands.