August 10, 2010 by lloyd
Terror in the 8th edition of Warhammer Fantasy. Darrell answer's a question on terror and gets carried away with how cheesy dragons and other terror causers could be in the 8th edition. Oooh your so scary I better run away even if you don't manage to charge me.
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Scaring something off the board is not cheesy at all.
Look at all of the iconic moments in film where they see the dragon, people duck for cover and wet themselves.
It seems right to me if you just sit there and wait to see if it comes gets you it doesn’t fit very well thematically.
Your going to wait to see if the dragon crashes into you this is when you start running?
No start running your ass of before hand.
I don’t even think this rule is cheesy and I think darrel is right.
Yeah it makes kinda sense, but the problem is nearly every army has at least 2 or 3 units which cause terror. (Especially Beastmen, Daemons and Chaos Mortals)
It makes a farce out of the rule, whats so fearsome about someone who causes terror when nearly everything has it or can get it.
Second!! If I see a Wyvern turning its head towards me and it starts moving fast my way screaming (imagin the T-rex from Jurassic Park,not the fag wyvern from Lotr) Im off way before its even close..
Not cheesy at all… Even though Im playing O&G and in future games are going to see my greens run like mad all the time… Its all coming down to tactics now… Keep the BsB close and beef up your command groups.. After all.. 25% lords and 25% heroes should make it possible to boost the average Ld to around 8…
There was no wyvern in lotr…
Do you have to be in charge range to be able to declare a charge? (I don’t have the rules yet)
Yes you do have to be able to reach the unit.
It’s as Darrell said, Movement + 2d6 that’s your charging ranche.
I can see how that could be very frustrating.
GW need to be careful they don’t ‘over-engineer’ the rules too much. Complexity and extra tactical options are fine, but I can see how the game could all become rather hard-going if situations like this occurred regularly.
I think I’d rather see all the units on the table at least allowed to hold their ground a little bit, even if they end up being routed after combat. Not sure how much fun it would be seeing units scarper off the table without getting anywhere near the opposition.
Yeah I also think that Darrel is definitely right on this. Actually I used this tactic about a week ago with my Dark Elves against my friends Orcs. The Manticore did not kill anything throughout the game but I did ‘push’ two massive units with this offboard. It is almost guaranteed with Doom and Darkness ;-).
DaD + Terorr was great in 7ed, but you had to get 6 inches from that unit, now you can do it safely from 22inch distance (and as you can premeasure anything, it is not hard to get exactly wher you want)
kane: you can’t declare impossible charges voluntarilly
This is more of a Bree kind of cheese, it can however be really annoying if you have a really solid and well equipped unit scared of the board on the first turn. I think that this terror rule for fantasy needs to be addressed a bit. However Darrell is right when it comes to the question that was asked, if they re-rolll for failed panic tests then i would think that it would be for all panic tests.
Sort of agree with you Caldors. Some troops would leg it at the first sign of a dragon running at you. Okay I am going to be honest, I would! lol But the beastie in Darrel’s example has an equal chance of getting snakes eyes and tripping over its tail before getting up to speed for a charge! If a monster is further away there is less chance of turning tail immediately imho
Maybe there needs to be modifiers for long range charges
+1 or 2 to leadership if the big beasties are at the maximum extend of their charge range.
or just clarify the wording in the Errata. Either way it seems a bit too off as it stands.
A game where a monster declares a charge each turn could potentially scare 6 units off the table. Fairly amusing for the monster’s player but would start getting a tad dull.
I don’t think this rule is cheesy either. I suppose if you were just in range like Darrel said it could be annoying and a bit silly as it’s very unlikely that you’ll make the charge, but generally, I wouldn’t argue against someone if they used this against me.
as a skaven player am suddenly scared
Remember though, that in this edition BSB allow you to re-roll every type of Ld test, so they are going to be seen a lot more often, making this not quite as bad as it sounds.
@ rainthezangoose, I really wouldn’t worry about it with Skaven, most of the time you are going to be Ld 9/10 and BSB for Skaven are dirt cheap, a re-rolling Ld 10 has a 99.31% chance of passing (if my maths is right).
I think a rule like this can only become cheesy if you use it thus. In normal friendly play I doubt you’ll face many people who will abuse this tactic all the time.
D: but my armys weapon team dakka, so at the best my squads are LD 8. (usually any who, and with out hero/lord) and all it takes is a bit of medicore shooting before hand, and bad LD6 Plus you just passed panic, last thing i need is this cheese terror attack.
tho you have a mighty good point with BSB ill deffo be making room for one, after seeing this vid
This type of thing, and the rage charge thing in 40k are really pointless to worry about, in friendly games, its funny, have a few laughs at the dragon(or similar) doing the fake out charge thing we all did to our little brothers(unless you were the little brother and you still haven’t forgiven/murdered your elder brother for it yet). In tourneys, it’ll either be clarified in the house rule pack or its the exact kind of thing you want to know before you enter, so you can use it and/or guard against it.
Narratively, it works fine, the dragon doesn’t need to reach the other unit if its ran away when they say it coming towards it so it stops and its rider shouts abuse at the fleeing mob.
Still, there’s always the chance its a typo(in a GW rulebook, that must be a first 😉 ) and they’ll FAQ things up whenever they feel like it.
This rule makes perfect sense to me. however I can see how one could use it in a very frustrating manner. Darrell I’m looking at you buddy! Better keep my BSB safe from those freaky Terror causing units!
Srsly… this aint fun….its way to cheezy… i would say that a creature need to make a sucsessfull charge in order to cause terror to the unit its charging.
i mean, a dragon or big satanic demon thing is scary when running up towards you but when its suddenly stops and catch its breath or just get distracted (cous thats what a failed charge is am i right?) its goes from being Hellofalot scary to hellofalot pathetic. i will modify the rule in all my games and will not accept if my oponent want to exploit that rule. cous that whats its all about, Exploiting rules!
im also prepared to take the discussion about this rule… if you got a good argument…
As I said a bit lower, what Terror does is basically give you a chance to be forced to accept the charge reaction of Flee.
The concept of “charging” and “failed charges” is a bit loose, for ease of play. A good example is Stand & Shoot. Stand & Shoot assumes that the charged unit waits until the enemy reaches the maximum distance their weapons can fire, before firing. However you don’t move your charge up halfway, then take the result of Stand & Shoot, then complete the charge movement. You just simplify it out to one step.
What a failed charge represents is simply, say, a realization that the receiving unit is “too far” or whatnot, and so they stop before making it fully. But in the meantime that big block of fellows or dragon or whatnot has wound themselves up and started running full-bore. As a defender, you see them legging it for you and you have to make that decision about what response to take BEFORE they get to you, or they cut you down.
Hence why you IMMEDIATELY choose your reaction, before testing to see if the charge is successful. Regardless of whether the enemy makes it or not, they’ve still started legging it to you, and a big block of armed guys running at you is scary regardless of whether you’re standing there abstractly going “Oh, they’re not going to make it here!” You don’t have time to think of that, it’s a block of guys waving swords at you!
The reason a failed charge is just the higher of the 2D6 is a game-balance thing, however. If they gave you any variant of Mv + D6, or anything like that…for many armies, they’d be able to failed-charge their way across the board faster than Marching. Heck, even raw 2D6 can fairly-often make it further than most armies’ March.
So you’re forced to take a penalty on failed Charges, which makes them a strategic decision. In reality it’s more likely you’d get nearly-there, or make your ACTUAL charge distance before “stopping”…but that’d be so good that there’d be no reason to March, most of the time. And so they’re forced to play it like failed Charges look VERY failed, instead of just coming up inches short.
It’s not a case of “Ah, it’s in my face, I shall be scared now”, but rather “Holy cow, that thing’s coming for US?! Leg it lads!”. it’s the whole flight or fight response: as soon as you know there’s a potential fight going down, your brain chooses if you run or stay. Trying to flee when it’s in your face because you’re scared is what the break tests are all about and are more deadly because it could catch and kill you.
I agree that it can be exploited, such as trying to charge something when you are half an inch out of range and would have no hope of even denting it and probably getting slaughtered. Having said that, it’s actually using psychological warfare. A HUGE part of ANY battle (especially real ones from history) is scaring your opponent off instead of killing them all. In fact, Napoleonic battles and a lot of Medieval battles were a case of show up and whoever stands there for longer wins. Rarely was a shot fired.
It’s also more simplistic than the 6″ bubble effect of last edition and makes more sense. Just because the scary thing is near and ignoring you, facing away, going for something else, doesn’t mean that you should run off. However, if that thing looks like it wants to eat your face, get the heck away before it gets the opportunity!
In my opinion, psychology and panic tests play a huge role in WHFB and makes the game rather dynamic. While it does suck that you have to test panic when being charged, there are plenty of other ways to combat a measly leadership test (well, other than being a bad roller). The game is all about having that edge over your opponent, and/or using strategy to combat your opponents edge.
While yea… it does suck that you can flee off a board, kinda like cazboab said, hey, its a game among friends. It would be a point of humor rather than serious contention!
Doesn’t this also mean (if successful) you could chase two units of the board in one turn? e.g you declare a charge they fail and run away so you then get to delcare another change on another unit? You could easily be within range of two horde sized units at the end of turn one and if they both turned tail and fled that’s it game over!
You can redirect a charge if a unit Flees as its’ charge reaction, by passing a Ld test.
What Terror does is basically make the unit test to see if they’re FORCED to select Flee as their reaction.
One thing about Ogres, Darrell…Ogres cause Fear. Against models that cause Terror, they downgrade Terror to just Fear, and the Fear-causers lose it.
So you don’t ever have to worry about running away from Terror-causers, when you cause Fear.
Psychology was one of the most effective ways of running down enemy units in 7th edition, it is not nearly as good as it used to be. However we now have another reason to take monsters, STOMP!
I don’t find this cheesey to be honest. As I;ve said above, if people try to exploit it, then they are usually in a desperate situation. Most things that cause Terror can take on most thigns and do some hurt. It’s also wise to go for units that have low leadership to negate them and not cheesey.
What I do find odd is that the rulebook says that they take a Panic test. I admit that being terrified can lead to panicking, but for rules it seems odd. The rules do allow Chaos guys to re-roll it (as it’s a Panic test) and I guess that they probably should be more resistant to being scared considering the background. However, Marauders probably shouldn’t.
Lastly, it is odd because Terror is less likely to effect Chaos than Fear is….
Here’s a real life experiment that illustrates the logic of the rule.
1. Find a payphone (if you can — not too many around these days).
2. Stand in front of it. Lift the receiver off the catch and pull it taut towards yourself at face level. Position yourself so your face is just an inch or so away from its maximum distance.
3. Have a friend take the phone and throw it hard towards your face.
The instinct of protecting yourself will typically always override knowledge that in most instances nothing will happen to you, and that’s assuming that somehow the troops being charged would be able to accurately and swiftly determine how much ground what’s charging them should be able to cover in a given amount of time.
Dragons and greater daemons are usually slightly scarier than a payphone too.
Also, “I don’t make love to dragons, I just love dragons.” Ha ha.
i see a lot of good arguments and consider that the rule acrually makes sense… in terms of realism… in terms of gameplay on the other hand… its terrible… it makes some factions completley worthless since the dragon may stay far away from the action, declaraing charges at units half the board away and make em run of the table… i dont like it at all…
Things to consider.
1. Most importantly terror is expensive to get, and a failed charge is going to hurt, you either get shot lots or charged. Remember even strength 1 can hurt your T6 dragon now, and with shooting in 2 ranks its going to hurt, also new rules mean if you get charged it also going to hurt as enemy will be steadfast (stubborn) and with all those supporting attacks, and not taking dead from the front means more pain. So for the small chance of panicking a unit you may loose your big expensive gribly.
2. For every turn you are sat in the middle on a failed charge not only are u a pincushion or charge magnet but you are wasting turns you could be eating things.
3. as said before by u guys the general’s leadership and BSB will make most units high leadership with a re-roll, in most games I have played even empire get a ld 9 re-roll, with their key units.
4. the only units u are likely to make run are not worth the points for the large risk.
so play lots of games and i think you will find it not cheesy
As always give new rules a good chance with at least a dozen games.
p.s. Have fun
An other point is most terror causers are large, and the shooting has real line of sight now. Bang, dead dragon, or at least it will be scared of bolt throwers, cannons, magic and other forms of pew pew… They are in my experience not that big of a problem. but then i play Dark Elves, Vampire Counts and Warriors of Chaos (Nurgle Flavored), so Ld isent a big issue for me most of the time. an other thing is that a failed charge barely moves you, so you will be placed in a vounerable spot and a dragon might be nasty, but it cant stand up to the might of a full regiment of half decent troops.