Weekender XLBS: Is Wargaming Under Threat?
January 27, 2019 by lloyd
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Uh oh, am I first? Happy Sunday, everyone! 😀
you beat me to it, i had to decide between making coffee or posting a comment..
I was still up on Saturday night. 😐 So I guess I had an unfair advantage.
Happy sunday
Oh boy, here comes the XLBS!
Feet up and I think a four-shot Espresso is in order.
Wow! I’m late! Look at everybody here already.
Well, that’s what I get for actually doing work instead of attending to proper priorities. 😉 😛
Happy Sunday!!!!
@warzan You could go to EM4 miniatures and get the old Grenadier Fantasy Warrior plastics . You can Orcs and Dwarfs . There about £7 for 48 miniatures
Scale comparison?
I think they were 28mm and would fit in with anything from the late 99’s early 2000’s But probably smaller than anything that gets released for fantasy these days.
Happy Sunday…. brst wishes to all the little gaming boys and girls across the world
in the early thirteenth century England was invaded by the French, and that Louis, son and heir of the French king Philip Augustus, was declared king by the English by the Barons looking to depose King John.Not sure if the too if my head if that was Louis VIII or IX
Edward 3 father of the Black Prince Think Crecy etc
The bloke using the bags is a disgrace. He could have at least used green bags
*shakes head* Justin the powergamer I’m surprised he manages to get a game
For you tube why don’t you title every video
“This isn’t 40k it’s………”
Mornings everyone. Happy sunday <3
@lloyd search for magnetic kitchen knife holders for all your magnetic strip needs!
That’s the exact thing Tony cheers
Oh, that’s good.
Useful for holding brushes as well I assume?
not really, very few brushes have a ferrule made from a ferrous metal because they spend so much time wet. So they’re not magnetic
Aha! Thanks Gerry 🙂
Happy Sunday!
The answer (before I watch the video) is clearly that whilst GW continue to focus on space dollies and elfy/orcy content then the rest of the industry will flourish in tbeir own way offering a different fare.
Maybe GW are doing a better job of retaining (and even re-recruiting some) loyal customers and upselling more products to their captive audience through smarter packaging. It ‘s certainly a more customer focussed approach than a previous “if we build it they will buy” mentality.
But many GW gamers eventually grow out of their offering and others were never attracted to it in the first place. Long live the rebels!
Let’s just do some maths on this Danny Dyer lineage. Binary exponential maths. Scary name but basically we have two parents (2^1), 4 grand-parents (2^2) and so forth and so 26 generations back we have over 67 million ancestors just at that level. Quick conclusion? We’re all related to royalty it’s just a case of finding the evidence.
25 years ago, beforethis was all on the internet my mother did family geneology and discovered that, working back through the generations, my great(x4) Grandmother (one of 64 Gx4GPs) came from a certain well-to-do family with lineage tracing me back to a couple of chaps who came over with William I and basically owned the South half of Manchester and Altrincham. But at that level(32 generations back) we each have 3.2 billion ancestors… Sure there’s got to be some overlap in people and at some point if I have all the info I’ll find I’m related not only to Royalty, but also Donald Trump, Justin, Weird Bob, Danny Dyer, David Attenborough and anyone else with a West European origin.
Its the old I’m related to Charlemagne. But then again in Western Europe so is everyone else. The problems are serfs taking or being known as the same surname as the local lord. Being a drect descendant and being descended from are very different. Same as these rip off DNA tests as they can only compare your results to other people who have taken the tests. On a different note Edward I worked out he was a direct descendant of King Arthur( just like me ?) just to show people have been making this stuff up for centuries
If anyone is interested in the actual term for this, apparently it’s called ‘pedigree collapse’. Wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse .
I’ve had it pointed out that 2^32 is closer to 4.3b, not thr 3.2b I stated. As an ex computer techie I know this and am pained that I made such a mistake.
Further developments… Online geneology has now let me trace back to Rollo too; and to be honest – given my resemblance to Rollo in that multi series Viking documentary everyone’s on about – I’m not surprised! 😉
@warzan where The Guardian article mentions Malifaux & WarmaHordes seeing drop offs, both of those systems are in the midst of editions that have proven divisive with the existing fan bases, many of whom migrated to them after being turned off by GW. Is it not unreasonable then to assume that as the pendulum has swung back the other way there will be a similar migration back?
Depends if GW has learnt their lesson and continue to remember it.
The number of projects that I have been involved in with my old day job where the Project Manager would right up the lessons learnt, present it to the higher ups and it would never be looked at again….
One of the reasons why computer projects have such a high failure rate.
Distribution is also a factor in those games. Privateer Press have made it far more expensive at least in the UK to get a good number of models, especially the bigger stuff as they have to order from the states and of course get customs put on top. Wyrd seem to have screwed up getting stuff over from China.
Poor Justin. He just can’t understand the riling. Another great show guys.
To attach the ice models head etc why not use double sided clear tape
Plus Lloyd should use a clear plastic rod or strip for his light support
Why didn’t the guy simply borrow empty orc boxes off the game store shelf and put them on the table without even buying them..
Wouldn’t play this guy, I’m with Justin on this
Haven’t played GW for over a decade and have never regretted it. Tournaments were full of arseholes who measured to the absolute millimetre, were souless, no sense of humour and generally shit to play against.
GWs prices have always been ridiculous and whilst the models were excellent the cost to collect an army was mental.
If GW stopped tomorrow the whole industry would benefit from their demise.
Lots of great companies are in danger because of the amount of money GW are taking in at this moment which is seriously damaging the hobby, and some clubs may fold if non GW players can’t buy their games they will stop going to a club and the clubs will fold as the numbers drop
To pick up on the Danny Dyer stuff, you can go much further back than Rollo.
Going back to Empress Matilda’s (first husband was Emperor of the HRE) (Lady of the English, all but England’s first Queen but never crowned), mother, Matilda of Scotland, you are into the Scottish royal line and Cinead mac Alpin (Kenneth MacAlpin), first real ruler of a united Scots and Pict, Scotland, which leads to eventually back to Fergus Mor of Dal Riata, who fl. in the late 5th century,
Matilda of Scotland’s, mother was Saint Margaret of Scotland, who’s father was Edward the Exile, son of Edmund Ironside (King of England), son of Æthelred the Unready (King of England, whos second wife was Emma of Normandy, great aunt of Willian the Conqueror – yes it gets messy), which then takes you back to Alfred the Great, who traces (although some say spuriously) to Cerdic, the first King of Wessex in the late 5th C and the very foundation myths of the Anglo Saxons in Britain (although from the evidence I believe Cerdic was possibly a mix of Jutish and British and neither Saxon or Angle)
Just to answer the point about Richard the Lionheart, his father was Henry II! (about 150 years roughly earlier). Edward III’s children is the beginning of the Houses of Lancaster and York, and the split which led into the War of the Roses.
Sufficient swastikas. You may proceed.
Happy Sunday! Here’s an independent retailers view from Australia;
Point 1: As an independent retailer I can say GW went from 30% (and falling) of my business 3 years ago to 60% (and rising) today. Even MTG is declining. No other company puts in the effort in terms of marketing and sales assistance that GW does.
Point 2: Are you guys nuts? As an independent retailer myself I would never bad-mouth GW publically. Not because you said anything false, but the happy lovely GW facade is paper thin. It’s a brave retailer that pisses them off.
Point 3: A number of other companies shot themselves in their feet just when GW came good. Warmachine is as dead as disco in OZ. Flames of War, Legion, Gates of Antares, Kings of War, Warpath, Dreadball, Deadzone and other games all have failed to set the market on fire because they either failed to produce high quality product quick enough or released a new edition without enough community involvement. GW did.
Point 4: Kickstarter has sucked a ton of money out of independent stores. As a result, why would we stock KS games knowing these companies have already scoured the market of cash and their customers? Monolith, Mythic, etc all do 1 off prints of games making them pointless for retailers. CMON at least often produces expansions that the KS did not include. GW by contrast continues to support the creation of future generations of GW fan-boys, who will in turn come into my store for the new shiny.
Point 5: Don’t underestimate hobby porn. Youtube channel and White Dwarf, showing games and painting of their products. Painted minis in the cabinets of GW and independent stores. A few companies have tried it but never with the panache of GW. In a conversation I had with Wizards of the Coast people, they stated how surprise they were with how many people wanted to watch D&D being played and how much impact that has had in sales.
Point 5: GW is listening. When they screwed up the Warhammer to AoS transition I really think it was a massive wake up call for GW. Long term managers and designers (iconic staff in some cases) were removed and replaced. At Cancon (Australia’s biggest convention for wargaming) 3 years ago AoS was almost cancelled. This year AoSII was capped at 240 players and has a waiting list that could have taken it to 300 players.
Point 6: The gaming zeitgeist changed to skirmish games. How many skirmish games have GW released in the last 2 years in either the 40K universe or in the AoS IP? They get it. They are the gateway drugs.
Great perspective – thanks for sharing.
Great response aligns pretty much exactly with what I’m seeing. 🙂
I don’t think its the return of the Evil Empire per se. Well if it is, they have gone for the secretive Senator Palpatine’s republic route rather than the First Order’s Empire (I love mixing IP’s here, somewhere in the world, nerds are raging. Live long and prosper, I say!).
I won’t start to worry about diversity until GW revives Warhammer Historicals. If they do that, companies like Warlord, Vitrix, Battlefront and Gripping Beast and a hundred other little companies could genuinely be at risk if GW put in some genuine effort.
I can’t see them resurrecting the W:Historicals, it was only given as a sop to the designers and sculptors who worked for them with that interest. It grew slightly larger than they wanted and once those people left it was wrapped up fairly shortly afterwards.
As I said in the show, Historicals were around before and I expect them to be here long after we’re all gone.
While the background material in W Historicals was great the rules were awful
They were OK. Taking magic out of Warhammer was all they did. When you compare it to other rule sets that are out now they were particularly ordinary, but at the time I understood why they took a system many people were familiar with in an attempt to migrate them into historicals.
Totally agree that it’s highly unlikely. I imagine if they did it would be in an largely uncontested area like 10mm (Warmaster) scale. The reality is that going into 28mm ancients or WWII would mean producing rules that could really challenge Hail Caesar or Bolt Action. The Minis themselves can’t really get much better than what’s already being produced and the copyright options mean GW couldn’t stop other companies from producing product for it.
There is a lot of 10mmm ancient/Medieval figures already out there. through Pendraken , Magister Miltum etc
There is but all from small companies that GW could knock over in a heartbeat. Realistically they can take 28mm Vitrix quality ancients and electronically shrink them 10mm without effort and because they are GW people would buy them.
Again I doubt GW would/will. But if they re-entered the historical war gaming scene, AND produced miniatures for historicals, then I would have serious concerns for market diversity.
Justin it his his hobby….If he happy why should we judge him lol
Happy Sunday!
Based on my limited and adecdotal experience, there’s more and more people getting into the miniature wargames through boardgames. In our club, it used to be that pretty much everybody had some sort of Warhammer past, but now when I meet new people they have played some games’ boardgames and then jumped into a wargame and then seeked out our club.
Given how big the boardgame market is globally and how ”normal” hobby boardgaming is becoming (I see people mentioning boardgames in their CVs) that seems to me one of the strongest channels miniature games companies could recruit gamers, past GW.
FYI – Pressgangers are no more. Privateer Press did away with them just before 3rd edition launched, if memory serves.
if memory serves this was part of that ruling about volunteers that hit Wizards of the Coast right?
Mmmmm, maybe but there are ways around that, as you said about doing police checks.
I know a couple of people that used to be Pressganagers… They got into to X-Wing when it was more popular and are now into GW product.
it was more about volunteers being considered as employees in the governments view if I recall
That rings a distant bell.
Is there a link to @lloyd ‘s shelving project – I can’t find it for the life of me?!
apparently it’s still private because @lloyd is a tease and doesn’t want to put it all out on the first date 😉
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1332479/ some day he may show his wares off for all the world to see
Ah well that’ll save me from using it to persuade Mrs Danegan that we need to remodel the spare room!
@dark Danegan I will probably make it public in a few weeks time when i get time to right it up.
Great show. This is the stuff we come here for!
On the main topic – it is actually two topics isn’t it. The threat to game diversity and the access to games of new recruits. They are linked to some extent but clearly separate in my mind.
New recruits – GW has been and continues to excel as the prime route of entry for young people into the hobby. As they get bigger in the market again this allows them more scope to do this more effectively. This goes in waves, they have piggy-backed off Lord of the Rings or made all of the running themselves. At times they lead with Fantasy and sometimes it is 40k. Who cares. I hope they contiue to do it brilliantly. Every new gamer they bring in is one who becomes aware of the hobby and at some point (however tightly they are in Justin’s box) they will run into other games and find the rest of the hobby. Shiny is as shiny does and suddenly they will be into another system or range. A bigger pool of hobbyists is better for the whole industry.
GW aren’t the only recuriting mechanism either btw. Don’t underestimate the impact Kickstarter has had in bringing non-gamers into gaming and particularly boardgamers into miniatures boardgames (and therefore the miniatures hobby more widely). Again a bigger pool of potential customers is better for everyone.
On the subject of decerasing diversity. Firstly, where GW isn’t then competitors will be. Mantic, Warlord and many others have business models built on the GW method but using a different context or content.They may suffer if their gamers return to 40k but those gamers have chosen to break from GW before and will do so again. GW refreshed their game and took your customers?; time to refresh yours and take them back again (Bolt Action 2nd Edition anyone?). Again if the pool keeps getting bigger there are more customers to fight over and a smaller share of a bigger market may still see your sales and company grow.
Then there is the pattern of demand within the market itself. This market has plenty of room in it for small and niche games to not just survive but thrive. GW don’t do Burrows and Badgers, okay so here is that product and because the overall market is big enough then a good game with great minis has every chance. Recent losses were the largely result of specific business errors (Dropzone/fleet), not a fundamental lack of customers. That is why the IP still has value. Not many games have been totally lost to the market recently (Runewars is a special case) and yet new ones keep arriving and still find a place. Plenty of companies make a good living by promoting diversity e.g. Osprey.
On recruiting in schools. It helps if you have your own CRB/DBS legal checks but schools won’t accept them unless they do it themselves so you will have to have staff present at all times. Therefore teacher/gamers are worth seeking out. If you offer an experience day near the end of term then many schools would take you up. The often have an activities day/week late in the summer term, especially for Year 6 once they finish SATs. Anyone promising to entertain a class in a vaguely educational way (Maths and English too, not just history don’t forget) for a day will get their arms bitten off.
Great points.
Technology might also be a relevant school subject – they didn’t have it in my day – with engineering advances in WWII like the Mulberry harbour, radar, jet engines, and computing devices.
A new version is a can be a great jumping on point.
It can also be a great jumping off point, as Privateer Press and Battlefront have learnt recently.
@warzan, my 2 cents for a vector at schools would be Normandy, since it is the 75th anniversary of D-Day this year.
New Zealand, where I live, saw a lot of news articles, museum exhibits (thanks Peter Jackson), TV shows, etc, commemorating WWI over the previous 4 years.
Not much has been made in public of the 75th anniversaries of various WWII events, but I think that is likely to change this year and next.
Top of the Sunday Gents 🙂
One way of getting into the schools is to target Wellbeing……..it is something all schools must take seriously now as mental health in young people is at time quite worrying due to all the pressure to grow up and examination at the expense of being able to have free time to do something not related to education and academic success. In order to build resilience it is important to get young people to think of their own wellbeing and adults must be the lead on this. Therefore using this umbrella as a means to open the door to all schools automatically removed cultural, religious and other barriers to multi-cultural involvement in gaming.
I am coming from this from the point of view of an educator and especially with students that have communication, social and behavioural difficulties.
Even if what was offered was painting which would therefore mean young people would not have to know historical facts. Over time the young person would develop an interest and want to learn historical facts around the game they are playing even if it is not on the history syllabus for their age range.
Also going in from the painting and crafting make cross curriculum links with DT and Art.
There could also be links with Mathematics as in ratio, percentages, scale, measurement, data handling (by recording results) and possibly most important of all both reasoning and stragetic thinking.
This could also have a link in for Science and ICT by looking at, and experimenting with technology developments .eg plastics, resin , the impact of the different materials etc
Drama and music could be involved via video, background music, filming etc.
Another option is target the notion of getting students to create their own youtube channel around the topic of painting (and playing ) , this is something so many young people love doing but the need a topic to be allowed. OTT have a wealth of knowedge and experience in this area and could offer advice. Make it fun but competative by make a competition with a prize for the best video and/blog on different topics.
@warzan, @dignity, @avernos, @llyod
One could add 3D printing to that list of technologies.
Like watching the old Top Gear crew picking on Karl Pilkington, has it moments.
I was really into my Privateer Press and Mantic when GW were at their lowest ebb of customer care. But the both companies changed their metal/plastic miniatures to that horrible resin plastic hybrid at which point I stopped buying their products. On another note with the Kickstarter of the PP art book brought back fond memories of Warmachine and I looked at getting back into it. My God have you seen the price of the infantry box sets (UK) even with the online discount it’s a ‘no no’.
My little input on the main topic.
Isn’t it a bit logical that GW is the way it is.
When I started (roughly two decades ago) there was nothing else around where I lived then GW and there was only one dedicated wargaming hobby store and one standard hobby store that sold a little bit of 40K.
I saw Confrontation come and go, this had a lot of interest from fellow gamers.
I saw warmachine/hordes coming and going, same for dust and warhammer historical (later warlord sets).
Flames of war did have more following once it got in but it wasn’t played much in store. Then the store went bankrupt due to bad management.
Then another store picked it up filling in the place of the old one and it only sells GW stuff for wargaming it also sells FFG but in that time they weren’t dabbling in minis yet.
Now so many years later it hasn’t changed here, it is still GW. I recently saw that they started selling GW in the movie/gaming (electronic games) store. It was only starter sets and a couple of other boxes and paints.
If I see the people around me, most don’t even know about wargaming but they have heard about GW. But then again how many electronic games do you have that are based on something from GW, dawn of war, inquisitor, warhammer total war to name a few. Then it is easier for them to make the step to GW. I also talked with a few people who ask what I play and most wouldn’t go to historical only to fantasy or sci-fi.
The other thing that I noticed and that people told me is that wargaming is to big for them and they rather stick with boardgames as it is more contained.
Great episode and discussion chaps.Do PP even have Pressgangers anymore ? I thought they had binned them some time ago ?
Happy Sunday…. again…
I had written a whole wall of text but Chrome decided to crash on me and so lost it all! (“Phew” some of you are now thinking as you don’t have to read it! 🙂 )
So the highlights version:
– As I’ve said before, 8th Ed killed 40k for me, but had an after effect on other games (see gaming and spending below)
– Over the past 3 years, 8th Ed being released nearly 2yrs ago, the number of games I played over course of the year has near halved. (Gamer diary)
– My spending has dropped massively on all games systems after hitting a mental wall of “Whats the point in buying all this if the rules change and I’m not going to play it any more?”.
– 8th Ed killed practically all other games at my 2 local clubs at its peak following release.
– Over the past year, club attendance dropped massively at one club as 8th Ed interest flagged, to the point they’re now running intro nights on other games systems to get people back. At the other club there has been a resurgence in other games as people are losing “full-time” interest in 8th Ed.
Think that’s the main points covered! 🙂
happy Sunday, it`s a pleasure to wake up and knowing there is an XLBS..
Can we just stop with th “sky is falling” backstage XLBS episodes please- I love you all dearly but if I have to sit through another one of these long winded and ill evidenced discussions around how the industry is approaching a period “period of pain”- I’m going to breakdown and cry.
On the plus side I’m loving Lloyd’s hobby room set up and made an embarrassing little gasp at his wall of really useful boxes (my wife shot me a look…). And Gerry you’re fast flock solution needs to be sold on line, I’d buy a bucket full.
Thanks all Happy Sunday
.
Unfortunately there is plenty of evidence something is a foot, to be fair though the cause is definately up for debate.
I have been sitting on my hands on this for quite a while now and really had reached the stage where I wanted to air it so that it can be discussed if need be.
Obviously i hope I’m wrong, but we will see soon enough i would reckon. 🙂
I’m a 100% with you on the flock and racking though 🙂
I’ll take it!!! This is our first tiff in years of happy backstaging, so let’s not fight anymore. And by way of making up I’ll wear my darts Vader onesie tonight ?
@warzan I’ve been saying for awhile that the resurgence of GW will affect the industry, yet I think the biggest threat isn’t GW but Brexit. The supply lines that a lot of companies rely on for raw materials will have a significant affect on a lot of the smaller companies especially if we go down the No Deal line. General costs will increase and long term it will have a bigger negative effect than GW.
Yeah Brexit will certainly take a crystal ball right now to work out what’s going to happen there! 🙂
I heard that the reason Cubicle 7 moved to Ireland recently was to navigate around Brexit.
still trying to work out where in Ireland they are, they hadn’t posted an address when I found out in Dec they were still listed in England, anyway I’m sure we’ll find out soon.
@avernos https://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/Cubicle-7-Entertainment-Limited-626362
I feel and think, GW entered the wargame industry when Sci Fi and Fantasy was not heard of before in a main aspect of wargaming. They hit the gap in the market at the right time. They have been going from strength to strength apart from the downward spiral but have come back and now entered the community social media at the right time. Gw design and sell lovely brilliant models and have a big fan base. I was once a fan but my life hit a downward spiral and I had to sort other means to continue with my hobby. I feel people should stop bashing GW. GW is a company just like every other wargame company. We need GW to continue to introduce the hobby of wargaming.
Lo and for years the Hobbits did steal treasure while the dragon did sleep.
And then one day the dragon did awake.
And the Hobbits were fearful of what the dragon would do to them.
But the dragon smiled and invited them in to eat at his table and teach them how to accumulate gold.
The Hobbits were scared and confused.
They did panic and run back to yonder Shire.
The lonely dragon did shed tears for a while and then returned to sleep on his mountain of treasure.
Happy Sunday. I am both a historical and GW player. I am a rarity here in the northeast of USA. the masses appear to be either focused in one or the other direction. the stores here complain more about web sales by 3rd parties then they are about competition or marketing from GW.
The comments regarding Bolt Action and 40k are very interesting. my entry into BA was directly a result of dislike of 40K list chasing and codex rule changes. I was never sure that was me or something others experienced and the change of format was some sort of natural transition.
Finally, by the way, plastic soldiers was all we had in the 60’s. There were rules, but little in dedicated models. I still have my first set of rules by John Featherstone, very basic but great fun. So I am all for the approach Warren is taking and hope you give us updates from time to time.
Great episode guys. happy sunday
Leaving troops in bags? I’m with Justin. Fuck off and find another opponent.
how dare you they are veteran toy story troops @warzan your talking about. Lol
Happy Sunday fellas. Good to see the return of the BS into XLBS. Recent shows have been a bit more of a laugh, which is exactly what I needed on a … delicate-feeling Sunday!
Danny Dyer toughing a sheep its better than Cameron pumping the pig. the new King Ralph ?
Interestingly Tom Vasel (an ex-teacher) of the Dice Tower has just released a video of Using Board Games in the Classroom, sounds like the start of a series, can be found here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYVhsumOn0s&feature=youtu.be&a=
a brain bug ?
Great topic (if a little depressing).
I think the unbounded success of GW is a potential problem and the rarity of independent gaming stores in the UK is a problem. Having seen two fail within 30 miles of my home in twelve months is a testament to this.
Putting games in front of ‘virgin’ eyes is still the biggest obstacle facing GW’s competitors in my opinion. Setting up a demo game of a newly launched tabletop wargame in a suitable location is probably the biggest hurdle.
With the prohibitive cost of mainstream advertising, putting your product in front of a million new potential customers to fish for a relatively small number of follow on sales is not an option.
Gaming clubs do provide a venue for new games to receive attention, but as I have found from my club, the problem is that the people who attend are (quite rightly) using what may be their only chance in a given week to play, to get a game in. Asking them to sacrifice this to stand at a fully loaded demo table on the off chance that someone attending the club has had a planned game get cancelled, is a big ask.
The drawback with gaming clubs and stores is, as Warren correctly identified, is a preaching-to-the-converted scenario.
I don’t have a solution but I believe the one thing that everyone who is interested in any aspect of our gaming hobby could do is to support local venues and stores at every opportunity.
If you only game at home with friends then find out if there is a local club and pay those few pounds to leave the comfort of your front room and game at the local club.
If you have a local store give them a few extra pounds to make a purchase instead of using an online retailer.
These are small steps most of us can take as gamers and are far less grand than perhaps becoming a game ambassador with a fully prepped demo game kit that you can trail round clubs and stores in your area, but I think they are no less worthwhile.
For my 2 cents I would go with something like What a tanker. Low buy-in (a 1:100 zvezda tank can be what £3-5). School kids could make the kit and then be up and playing with their tank in session 1 or 2 depending on time. It can then lead on to something a bit more involved like bolt action, fow etc
Just to contradict Lloyd a little bit, you guys have upped the 40k content in recent times. That’s not meant as a criticism but John has worked on god knows how many 40k armies in recent bits, a lot of the news is 40k/gw related. I dunno how much this is market driven, like mantic used to be cropping up more often but recently don’t get much of a mention… it might be that others just aren’t competing on the same level, or if ott don’t put up gw content then will you guys see fall off. I don’t have an answer am afraid, just a view
I would guess this is because of Games Workshop’s increased frequency of releases and the ease with which they can be syndicated, as it were.
GW the plastic drug lords ? where’s the clinics ?
Happy Sunday guys! Hope everyone is doing well with their hobby.
Just wanted to comment that the whole mickey taking bit about the bags to Justin was tough to listen too. Think we can all appreciate that the guy who played with bags is a bit of a disgrace to most of us, but the whole repeated laughing and crappy comments to pick on Justin just wasn’t fun to listen too.
Just wanted to put my 2 cents out there… Have a fun day of hobby folks!
nice show guys.
@warzan A suggestion for getting games out for public to view would be libraries. Most have meeting or conference rooms available for use. What could be done is to get a room and depending on size sit up 1 or 2 demo game tables of 1 or 2 games and run demoes or games there. I would suggest probably doing this over several months maybe 1 day a month or so, and post signs about the games that will be demoed or available to play on the libraries bulletin board.
When people come in for the demoes or to play you could then hand out information about the games, where to get them, and information about your site and location of ether your gaming club or other clubs that play these game’s.
This could even possibly foster closer relationships between clubs if you jointly do the demoes, not really sure how clubs work across the pond.
A few years my wargaming group and I collected lots of Army men, painted them up, even converted a few, and played large games of Memoir 44 with them. I still have my army, we used Britains’ artillery pieces, for we just used the tanks that came with the army men.
Put the helicopter back on the soldiers back @warzan, they’re making jump troopers!!
I have to say, I was quite disappointed in this weeks XLBS for two big reasons.
First, while I understand the spirit with which it happened, I can’t believe how poorly Justin was treated over the ‘bags of orks’ discussion. Is it ‘elitist’ to want to play games with assembled miniatures? If I showed up to Lloyd’s Saga game, Jerry’s Rorke’s Drift game or Warren’s Napoleonic game with a sack full of bottle caps and said “Here’s my models, let’s play,” it is doubtful that each of you would be so accommodating nor would I be praised for being so ‘innovative’. It’s one thing to proxy a model or a unit in a friendly game with a long-time opponent, but to show-up and play a stranger at the local club/game store with bags full of models that may have not even been assembled goes way beyond our social contract for wargaming. I’m embarrassed to play a stranger if my figures aren’t fully painted, much less, in bags. Why should we even take the models out of the box, just leave the in the shrink wrap and push cardboard boxes around the table. I get that Justin is the ‘punching bag’ and many times he deserves it, but this time the ribbing was just unwarranted.
Secondly, the Games Workshop discussion seemed to lack perspective. I’ve been actively tabletop gaming in various forms for most of my life. I’ve been collecting and playing wargames including GW games for 20+ years (going back to 1996). Over that time I’ve seen the hobby ebb and flow with what is popular. The same argument you are making now, was the exact same argument that has popped up time and again during those 20 years, “GW will own everything and there won’t be any room for other games ever.” This falls into the common arguments that have occurred on the internet since I’ve been playing games: “GW’s prices are too high!”, “Codex <> has ruined the game!”, “Edition <> is terrible, I wish they’d go back to <>!”, “GW only likes Space Marines!”, “GW doesn’t make enough Space Marines!” etc. Yet GW and the industry at large seems to endure.
We truly live in a Golden Age of Gaming. Anyone with talent and a good idea, can get a game published on Kickstarter. Multiple game companies are making historical miniatures in plastic! This was unheard of 20 years ago, if you wanted historical’s, you had to buy them in metal. While GW is the “big fish” in the “small pond” in wargamming, they are a very “small fish” in the “big pond” of how we spend our entertainment dollar. WW2 gaming is as popular now as it has ever been. We even have two different games at two different scales from two different companies that cover WW2 (Flames of War and Bolt Action). Just because GW is “crushing it” right now, doesn’t mean there will be nothing else; not everyone likes what GW makes and other games/companies will be there to fill the void for no other reason than there will always be those that hate what is popular.
But in the end, we’re all just pushing around toy soldier’s and hopefully having a laugh or two with friends, so can’t be all bad can it…
P.S. One last note, on the Moon landings… I’ve read up on both sides of the argument of whether Apollo 11 landed on the Moon in 1969 or not. The more I read, the more the Moon landing denier’s sound like “Flat Earthers”. What pushes it over the top for me is the reaction of the Soviets. No one was watching closer to that whole mission than the Soviets. The Soviet Union would have loved nothing better than to prove that the US did not land on the moon. But after all this time, they have said nothing on subject.
So much in this episode! Uhm well.. GW doing social media, but still it’s one way communication. Except now they are looking at what fans want as opposed to make it and they will buy it! Uhm.. and deep space death scary. RIP Runewars, dont forget Asmodee could really surprise in the future with a big purchase as they have millions. And, Justin needed one on his side this time, lol. Gerry, awesome foliage mix..
Tutorial please!
Monday morning! Hello, I’m late. It’s 7 am and I’m having my first cup of STFU (aka coffee) and hope to get this video done before any clients start calling 😉 HUZZA!
What a note to end on (sort of, not counting space chat at the end)
Can’t say I have much to add. The similarities from GW Fanboys to Apple/Microsoft/Linux Fanboys is just depressingly obvious. And I think the only non-GW systems that will survive long time are those with a good PR staff, active social media and good community support. Sadly I can’t feel any of that for systems I play ATM. (X-Wing and Legion in Germany since Asmodee Germany is a “hot mess” at the moment. A small team with too much on their hands. For example: FFG released the version 1.2 of the Legion rules reference on 20 Nov 2018. Until this day there is no translation of it. We’re still stuck on version 1.0 And it’s this way for *every* Asmodee game that has been localized)
We need diversity in games but we need it with proper community support. Now, back to work for me.
Fascinating show.
Think you’ve made some brilliant points about the industry in general.
GW really is going from strength to strength at the moment. As a lapsed 40k player must admit filling there coffers recently. The excellent painting handle you mentioned, and Warhammer conquest “magazine” provided cheap figures and materials to build a Kill team.
They identified there are casual players without huge amounts of time, more interested in skirmish rather than mass battle and catered appropriately. This is a definite strategic move, with rogue trader and shadespire also hitting test game in a box market.
They have some strengths over other systems with this approach. A skirmish force can grow into a full army if the urge grabs you. You’re not going to do this with say malifaux or guildball.
They’ve also seemed to have fixed there “evil empire” image (I stress image) with more engagement with social media etc.
This article though did highlight that not all the corporate shenanigans have ceased.
There strength is probably also there Achilles heel. 3,500 staff, established logistics and numerous retail outlets equate to overheads, and as Warzan mentioned the price point is very very steep compared to competitors.
Great points.
One thing to counter their price point is I think that GW is adding “utility” to a number of releases. For instance the Blackstone Fortress figures have official rules for use in Kill Team and 40K proper, so if you buy this product, there are 3 ways to use the figures.
Then again Warlord WWII figures could be used in any other WWII ruleset for 28mm that person owns…. But it’s not really a selling point for Warlord…. hmmmm. (Wonders off stage left talking to himself.)
I think the other thing you mentioned was “bubbles” with people not seeing other systems.
This platform has opened my eyes to so many new game systems so hats off to the excellent work, keep it up.
Think historicals and schools go hand in hand. Romans, Greeks, egyptians, Vikings, napolionics, WW. Sure they would all Segway in.
Lord of the rings movie night and gaming would also surely go hand in hand?
Finally lads SAGA is constantly being mentioned by Lloyd as being his current love. Yet your site seems a bit sparse with content on the system especially since the rules update.
Potential “let’s play” seeing as you have some in house experts?
Interesting topic this week , specially as @warzan put a different twist to the almost decade re-aksed question is ‘Wargaming dying’.I’m certainly one that’s been effected by GW’s current success , with very little previous exp, have spent…..loads on a lot of the new games books etc and now happily sports ‘Raven Guard’ icons everywhere.In addition it has dominated our groups game playing. Though its not stopped me dabbling in Warlords Cruel Seas and Desert War bolt Action. Interestingly have Warlord with that game started a similar strategy, I wanted some extra Fairmile D’s (dogboats @warzan) and according to Vince my local games shop manager, they can only be got via Warlord direct.
did try reading the original Guardian article when it was posted but switched of halfway through, hence why didn’t spot the Wayland Forge bit. I know Adrian , you could say he runs the store , but unless things have changed greatly he co-runs it with the owner Niahm, but I may be wrong not been for at least 12 months.
Just done a little checking of some of the major retailers, Element ,Goblin, Wayland, Firestorm and none stock the individual ‘Cruel Sea’ items so other than the fleet boxes you have to go to Warlord direct.
Those army men do actually look quite good. Any idea what ‘scale’ they are – 54mm? If so, if those had been around at the time GW brought Inquisitor out, then Inquisitor might have been more popular and/or there might have been less rise in the Inq28 scene. Do they make other factions, or is it just army men, they look kinda sci-fi to me, so wouldn’t be too surprised if they also make aliens for them to fight.
Re: vehicle size – that’s just prepping your kids for trying to cram twelve marines into a Rhino. ?
Are Gerry’s organs pining for the fjords? ?
Gerry’s basing mid is a nice idea.
“I don’t want frosting on my ice elemental” – ah, irony, they name is Gerry.
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A couple of years ago when GW first announced an increase in profits (2017?) I said that I thought it would be interesting what effect a competitive GW would have on the wider industry. The prevailing attitude at the time seemed to be that a rising ride lifts all ships but I wasn’t really convinced. Two years later, an almost throw away line in a very weird article about GW has sparked a debate about that effect – only two years. You see, my thinking about this has been that while a rising tide does lift all ships, GW is not the tide it’s actually a very large ship – a ship that is growing and squeezing smaller ships out of the harbour. The tide hasn’t really risen and the harbour hasn’t grown, certainly not as fast as the GW ship has grown and GWs success has largely come at the expense of other games companies
Going through the schools is a brilliant idea. I first got my love of tabletop games from a little DnD group we had at school. Going through the security checks is generally not an issue – just a bit of paperwork – I work with kids through cycling and music and have certifications from the PSNI and the Gardai. I’d love to help out – maybe run some demo games or something – if you guys decide to take this further.
So I’ve read the comments and watched the video twice (I know, I’ll likely take to my bed for a few days to recover, I can feel a fever coming on already) but I still don’t know where we can buy boxes of plastic soliders for about eight quid to practice painting on….
Here is my “quick” comment on GW, but more the GW community as a whole which I believe is a real shame and needs to be stamped out ASAP. (I really hope this won’t turn into a full on rant, so I apologise in advance)….
Games from GW are the only games I have personally come across where people seem to feel they have a right to tell people how to build their lists, play their armies and even paint their minis. Don’t get me wrong, in historical games people ask for help with things like Cameo patterns etc, but that is massively different.
I used to collect a small force of Grey Knights (stopped for a couple of reasons), but one of the reasons was I wanted mine to look grey…. hence GREY Knights. I didn’t want my army to be silver with a blue wash. I wanted a look of weathered grey armour. I stopped trying to have small games with people with them after I was told by so many people they were the wrong colour. I first started WH40 as a kid, and collected a small force of Ultramarines. Don’t get me wrong, blue is not my favourite colour, but I loved the way the images of the Ultramarines looked in the rulebooks and the blue stood out on the table… Nowadays, you get comments like “Ultra-smurfs” or “why not play a proper chapter like ……………”. Why else did I pick Ultramarines? I love Roman history and the Latin/Romanesc names really appealed to me then and even now.
I really really hope I am not becoming a snowflake and reading too much into this, or does this mean I now have the right to be a d**k to others who have worked hard and put time, money and effort into painting their army the way they want to so I can call them “Tampon-Angels” and alike?
Lets be clear: I am not going to make fun of anyones hobby or army and certainly not going to be rude to people about the army they pick. Its their hobby. I have played games against Sherman tanks painted yellow and pink before now and had a great laugh. I am not a hobby elitist in any way, shape or form, but there seems to be some people out there.
Am I the only person who thinks this way or have I just come across the band of GW fans who are d**ks and I need to calm down and broaden my horizons when looking into GW?
….. Rant over. 😛
And now take a deep breath and put the kettle on 😉
yes! espresso for everyone! 8) 😉
Funnily enough, I wrote this and went to get a cup of tea afterwards 😛
I think you just had the “worst possible players”. When I play a game (regardless the system) and do something “out of the ordinary” I may get asked “why do you do it this way?” but after explaining I don’t get any hassle. Example: at the last X-Wing tournament I flew the Falcon with Han and Chewie and a X-Wing with Luke and R2. That is so far from meta gaming as you can get but I love the cinematic playstile and I really don’t play to win (although winning is nice) and most opponents raised an eyebrow but where actually happy not to fight the same list like they did 3 times that day before.
It’s a hobby. It’s supposed to be fun. First and foremost. That’s my take on it. So, welcome to the club and paint your minis however you like. (If you want torture some people here: use pink a lot. Especially on armoured vehicles ;))
I have had conversations with opponents after games of other sci-fi games as well as fantasy and historical games where we discuss how the battle went etc and had a few times discussed tactical decisions that changed the out-come etc. These always seemed to be very adult conversations and I never felt I needed to justify myself.
Maybe I have just hit a mass of “those” players and unfortunately it is either at GW stores or when discussing GW products so I am tarring people with the same brush.
As I said, it wasn’t meant to be a rant, but man did that fall down once I started typing. 😛
Hopefully I will start bumping into GW players who accept the hobby as a hobby and make it feel (to me at any rate) less elitist and more inclusive. 🙂
@cypher2009 – my guess is that the size of the GW player base is just so many times larger than that of any other company’s games that you really notice the people who are offputting. The GW ecosystem is large enough for them to flourish.
Other games certainly do have similar players, but if the communities are smaller they have to be more open minded or they won’t grow or survive.
@avernos for the tranlucent resin best glue for transperancy and sticking power is Araldite Clear, it is a two part epoxy resin so bonds really well with other resin.
I have a couple of epoxies here and never even thought.. I think I’ll try the pva first as it’s a know quantity and if it doesn’t work easier to clean. Thanks for the idea though it will probably be a fall back if required
Whilst the comments regarding bogeyman was made, it did feel like a very negative GW episode.
Whatever your thoughts on GW they do a lot for the industry either directly or indirectly.
They are certainly an incubator for talent, and for many the way they get into wargaming. Attracting more people to the hobby is no bad thing.
Many of these people then go on to experiment with other games systems and spread wider and further, getting into different game systems.
This might not have happened had they not initially got into gaming via GW.
I have certainly seen this in my club and we have gone from playing purely 40k and MTG to branching out into other systems. At present the popular games are Kings of War and Saga. There is always a bit of GW games going onto but not dominant.
Obviously because of their size GW have a greater reach. My nephews who recently got into wargaming only have a GW in their town. This is great support for their gaming which they would never have got into had GW not been accessible to them. They would ve lost interest and got stuck in the digital gaming world instead. They are interested in other games systems from seeing those I play and as they get older I fully expect them to diversify into other manufacturers game systems.
So long term, I think this is good for the industry as a whole.
I can understand many of the arguments put forward in the XLBS, and agree with many of the points made. However it did not feel very balanced in the arguments put forward.
In summary if GW grow, then there are more gamers in the hobby, it stands to reason therefore that there are more gamers long term who may wish to play with non GW game systems.
I liked the Danny Dyer’s Right Royal Family show. I don’t take it too seriously and he’s hamming it up the connection and how much he loves being “royal”. The Who Do You Think you are programme was also good, but I like that.
@warzan In answer to your question. He’s not a current member of the royals as some of his ancestors were punished for being on the wrong side of a rebellion / civil war (I forget which one). His family eventually ended up impoverished working class in East London.
I had to Wiki Danny Dyer. Am I hopelessly out of sync with popular culture? No, it’s the children that are wrong.
So your moon discussion. I really hope none of you actually believe that we’ve not actually gone to the moon. Anyway, It is unlikely that any of the manned missions left the Earths gravitational potential by accident. It would require significant energy (or thrust) to leave the Earth completely. Even if a space craft bounced off the atmosphere it wouldn’t have enough energy to leave the earth-moon system. It is far more likely that it would remain in orbit around the earth until the astronaut ran out of oxygen but it is still likely that the capsule would eventually fall back to the earth. The more likely accidents are air leaks and or wrong angle of return. The wrong angle of return basically has two consequences. Either the temperature of the capsule increases so much (from air friction) that it cooks the astronauts or it isn’t slowed enough that the capsule falls ballistically with too much velocity that the parachutes are of little help and everyone dies on impact. I actually don’t doubt that there may have been unreported deaths in the Soviet space program.
The threat to wargaming as an industry doesn’t really exist. Will the industry be as successful as it is right now forever? No, but will it be completely gone? Of course not, there will always be something of an industry. GW can be successful or a comparative failure and the industry will continue. Now if GW is doing well then others will do well in a “rising tide floats all ships” kind of way. But GW can fail and there will still be people that love other aspects of wargaming, GW is completely out of the historical part of the industry and almost completely out of the RPG industry.
Interesting discussion. I’ve definitely reigned in my spending on Kickstarters and other companies’ games and spent more on GW over the last couple of years. Some of that’s down to GW, some to other reasons.
I would say I’m not panicking about GW’s growth, but I think most of the concerns voiced in this show are valid. It’s the same with any market or industry where you have so much concentrated market share: in search engines, social media, phones, etc. And while GW could repeat the mistakes of the past (and again give other companies a boost) I don’t think it’s as likely. I think they’ve learned – it’s easy to compare how they were doing when they were treating customers with contempt with their success now. But also, they’ve realised that good customer service is good for business. The lack of competition previously meant there was nothing to stop them becoming gradually nastier, but they now obviously can see that good customer service makes them money.
So just a few thoughts on solutions (and yes, I would like a solution as I would like to see the hobby remain diverse). Companies may have to get better at scaling up and down. The barriers to new entrants to the market are relatively low if you just want to publish a single run of a game (thanks Kickstarter). As we’ve seen from the likes of Hawk Wargames, growing a company is a huge challenge. So companies need to learn how to grow rapidly when they have the opportunity to do so, but to be able to shrink again if necessary without it killing them. Getting better at logistics would be a huge help.
I wonder if new tech. may help too. e.g. if home 3D printing becomes common that would enable small companies to coast without getting into danger and would allow ambitious, lucky, driven and very good companies to expand safely.
Creating and sustaining a community is key for the long term prospects of any company that wants to do more than just Kickstart self-contained games. Apps that link gamers may help build communities. As some companies go to the wall, there may be some consolidation which makes some games more robust. And society could still change in other ways. The high street is changing. The internet is changing. I’m a councillor representing a village of about 3000 people in a parish of around 4500 people. There’s a lot of development so we’re growing rapidly. One of the major concerns residents have is that there’s relatively little community feeling. I suspect lots of communities up and down the country face similar issues. Perhaps in the relatively near future we may see new (or old) ways of bringing people together being tried, whether that be in social clubs / community halls, etc. or via local meetup groups.
I think the threat from GW to the diversity of gaming is mainly from the secondary affect their growing market share has on killing off rival communities rather than from simply producing games and models that are more popular. If competitors can find ways to make their communities more resilient, they should still be able to survive and prosper.
@warzan Early this year I was playing a kid in a game of 40k, I doubt he was older than 10. He had his own army of Space Marines, painted himself, but most of those were quite old models, just not yet classic retro stuff. I think you could potentially buy quite a bit of this stuff on Ebay for not much, strip it, prime it and have them paint it.
I do think the plastic bag idea is funny, but like Justin, I would not play against him. I can play against unpainted models, but not against bags.
The Van Allen belt is thinner at the poles. The Apollo missions went into a polar orbit and flew through the thinner bits of the Van Allen belt at the poles making the radiation far less and not lethal. Take it from a guy on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNiscigIgBc
Happy Sunday! Thought provoking and entertaining as ever.
It is a tough call, as a kid I hated history class, and it still bores me to tears now. Fantasy and sci-fi always fascinated me though and for sure that was a big part of the draw of Games Workshop as a kid, but having those stores mattered a lot. I was playing GW for years as a very young teenager before coming across books for other games in our town library, and later an independent gaming store, which changed my life!
I’d hate for the next generation to not be exposed to those other options, it would be a sad thing indeed. Though it is tricky to know how to compete with that high-street presence, other than working with clubs in schools and possibly paid post-boosting on social media to try and target viewers of 40K videos, but the cost of doing that for a sustained period would be huge.