Cult Of Games XLBS: How Many Tabletop Rules Do We Need & Should They Be Simple Or Complex?
January 17, 2021 by crew
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up too late
But in earliest!
It’s the XLBS Show………..Happy Sunday fellow CoGs!
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It just happens to be my dear old mother’s birthday. She’s 80 as of today. I’m going to broadcast this episode for her as she wanted to watch something that she’d never seen yet in her life and was guaranteed to make her laugh! Don’t let me down @warzan
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(love the book club video)
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I don’t think that I’d like to be restricted to just one rule set for every game. There are many sets that are cool and yet very different.
I resist anything that asks me to be generic in any respect. One ruleset makes gaming just too generic. How boring gaming would become. IMHO
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If a company does not create its own set of rules for its games, then it just becomes a figure/model shop, doesn’t it??? Sure, they can create some fluff for the game but not too long ago, folks were bitching about “too much fluff” is ruining gaming. I think that there are two groups of gamers that really want a different experience. Some just want it cut and dry and play to win. Others want the fluff, the flavor, and the experience not just “who’s going to win”….. IMHO
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Also, the rules need to be printed out in a book form, not that living in the Ether bull$h/t! I want my rules on a bookshelf in my hobby room, not in a fraking cloud somewhere.
(ok….stepping down off my soapbox now)
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@avernos I have started reading “McCarthy’s Bar: A Journey of Discovery In Ireland” and I have to say, “money well spent”.
So far what I’ve learned is…….
1)Ireland is a wonderful place.
2)Never ever ever rent a car in Ireland!
3)Never ask a question of a native in Ireland and expect a quick answer, long conversations with total strangers are the norm.
4)Noddles are way overpriced for some reason.
I’m about a third through the book and have noticed that there are many parallels to my stomping grounds here in Kansas. It’s kind of scary. Here I thought idiosyncratic behavior was ours alone. BUT, the noodles here are very cheap!
I’m glad you’re not only enjoying it but that you managed to get to the mail ahead of your wife
Yes indeed!
I lucked out Thursday when it arrived, as she was scheduled to work one and a half hours later than I.
Not that I’ve kept it hid from her, (it’s been in the hobby studio next to my 40k and Conquest figures when I’m not reading it). My Justin Puppet,(known here as ‘PJ’), has been keeping an eye on it. But that’s another story!
McCarthy’s Bar is one Mrs G’s favourites. When she finds it it’ll go on the to-read pile.
Up early. Drinking coffee, waiting for 3dprint to finish. Happy Sunday.
I feel the sudden need to change my name to Maximilien Robespierre
Pleased to meet you Max. I loved that Reign of Terror thing you did, it certainly brought people up short.
Destroy the Aristocracy
Happy Sunday COGs hope your all safe and well. I really think Warren is on the right track planning Waterloo with Quell Affair and Wofun. Not only will it look blooming amazing but it’s affordable but you can field forces closer to the number without having organise the giant Waterloo game held in Glasgow in 2019. I really enjoyed recreating the Alamo and it looked fantastic. I used the Deguello rule set which is a short simple reaction based rule set aimed towards a hour and half game. I was playing the game for and with my nephews so wanted something that was relatively simple with a pace that kept the interest. I can see the appeal of One ruleset to Rule them All, allowing players to be walked through a series or genres and periods, as Lloyd mentioned there’s a time issue in learning different ruleset, however, personally, looking through different and differing rulesets has always been part of the hobby for me alongside the collecting, the model work and the play but then I will freely admit that’s the nerd part of me that craves the detailed ruleset with built in narrative. As Gerry mentioned it really does depend on the gamer and even how the gamer feels on the day but that’s why I enjoy a choice of different rulesets to peruse. I do agree with Ben that companies will turn out more simple rules as some gamers search for that instant hit they can get from online games like Total War. However I really don’t think we should ever as a community reduce or restrict our options. In my opinion such a approach stifles creativity and will lead us to become in the long term too rigid in our gaming outlook and bored. I really don’t see an issue with difference for difference sake, it’s more to chose from and besides Gerry might have gaps on his shelf if there’s less ruleset, we can’t be having that….Restricting the call for differing rulesets may also put off future projects and rulesets from smaller companies and individuals like Joseph McCollugh or Alex over in Warploque. The Warploque rules are far from bland and has a great narrative that larger rulesets lack a joy just to read. Why should the larger companies like Games Workshop or Warlord set the standard and why would that rulesets standard be chosen, because it suits that companies long term financial plan. I don’t want to buying my games, minis and rulesets from some Amazon like hub that we all play like drones. That’s an extreme example I know but via difference, if you want something simple that suits you go find it cowboy it’s your hobby but maybe one day you’ll want that more detailed, different or simply wacky resource and it might not be there when you do. I’d rather have a ruleset gathering a little dust than never have been shared. The idea of a open source database of rules is a good idea however I’d hope it’s completely intellectually protected and independent and not a free ideas page for the larger companies allowing them to steal and incorporate new ideas before the author has had chance to publish. Excuse the long write up as the saying goes i start then get too lazy to stop.
Great golden buttons and discussion today. See you all Monday.
Laser jizz out the bottom.
Isn’t it great to be a CoG? 😀
The best rules are simple … but elegant – as in almost “fiendishly” designed. Rules that, without charts or tables or cards or stat lines, encourage tactically realistic (or at least plausible, depending on your genre) behavior from the the commander. Rules that enable players to come to sensible tactical decisions on their own, reflecting that works in the game is also what worked on the actual battlefield.
Such rules are usually simple, but deceptively so. Like chess … the rules can be explained in five minutes … but you’ll spend a lifetime mastering the game.
The cornerstone upon which any GOOD system is really designed – the TURN SEQUENCE. Clear, unambiguous, no-nonsense, and not open to different interpretations … a solid turn sequence is the heart of any good rules set, and strict adherence to the turn sequence answers 2/3 of any rules questions that might come up in game play.
While I agree the turn sequence is important personally for me the command and control is the part of the rules I look at first. If I like that then I will look further into the game
Agree @torros – Command and Control is indeed a vital part of the game. I feel like something of a hypocrite saying that, since my favorite game of all time (Panzer Leader series) HAS NO command and control system whatsoever. But I’ve never claimed that game is perfect, and lots of people have published their own hose rules to bring that elements into the game.
A good ruleset for me is one where good players make decisions that mimic what good commanders would make in real life, the abstraction hasn’t lost the conceptual essence of reality that matters.
Indeed, @coxjul – some of my favorite historical games have put players in historical situations, the face the same problems, they counter the same threats, the overcome the same limitations, and for reasons that are “organic” (if not hit-you-over-the-head explicit) … they make the same decisions as the historical commanders did … the player finishes the game, WINS the game, and feels great.
Then you open the history and show where the historical commander(s) made the same decisions for largely the same reasons …
You wanna talk about immersive? You just played that game with that commander’s ghost behind your shoulder.
(cue spooke music) …
😀
Happy *YAWN* Sunday!
I can imagine an open day at Castle Dunans turning into a scene from Spartacus (or LoB)…
Warren ( a bit too loudly): I’m Laird of Chaol Ghleann.
Other1: No I’m Laird of Chaol Ghleann
Other2: I’m Laird of Chaol Ghleann.
Etc.
Not wanting to dampen the poor, wee Laird’s seat, here’s a quote from one of the sites flogging these for £25 a piece.
“The term ‘Laird’ tends to be reserved for the owner of an estate in Scotland, occasionally referred by the owner themselves, or most likely by those employed by the estate. The term is used as a description as opposed to a legal title. “Laird”, a Scottish term, is a title reserved for those who own larger estates or pieces of land in Scotland and can be interchangeable in a traditional sense with Lord. Though, in modern times, a Lordship and the term ‘Lord’ is associated with nobility and peerage, of which the word Laird is not.”
An aspect to the ruleset discussion that wasn’t mentioned is competitive/tournament play. That only works well where randomness is minimised and a player’s ability to build and master a list flexible enough to cope with varied opponents and scenarios. That requires a level of complexity in the ruleset beyond a casual gamer’s needs. I only want to be getting my head around one system at that level at a time.
An experienced club/group gamer then wants a handful of a variety of mid-complexity games that they can play semi-regularly or have a burst of play through a campaign for a couple of months. Complexity is mitigated through the availability of resources like unit cards with special rules and specific stats readily available. I made my own electronic equivalents for Infinity N3 so I didn’t forget to use or do things; I’m pleased N4 has moved into out of the tables onto the unit stats to make them more accessible; having said that I’ll probably be more if a CodeOne player at club now and am grateful that ruleset opens the game up to more entrants when it comes to short campaigns.
Then there’ simpler pickup games, ideal for a fun, social experience where winning isn’t the object and I don’t care that a lot of it came down to dice-rolls rather than skill.
Standardised ISO rulesets? Nooooooooooo! They would kill innovation and quickly fall by the wayside as they become irrelevant and inconvenient (35 years in IT provides plenty of examples).
What we should recognise are smaller, reusable patterns for core mechanics that become familiar (like Lloyd’s gamepad example). This is very recognisable in the boardgame world and helps players move from one game to another. It’s then the combination of those with bespoke, setting or genre specific extensions that create a game. Take Saga as an example… (Glug)… or D&D 5th, or even Infinity’s D20 with AROs (which I love). They’re proven and popular. Sometimes an attempt to extend doesn’t work… but hats off for trying!
sometimes I like elegant rules , sometimes I like to wallow in rules like a pig in $%$%, lettimg them wash into every nook a cranny. Short answer , there isn’t a short answer
A @warzan hilt… why do I feel love honey is getting a new sale…
Winter Book club ????? What I have to wait until JUNE !!!!
***** Glares in fake High Dudgeon ********
I am stil waiting for this blatantly Hemispherist language to be retratcted
****** Scowls darkly while seething in a surprisingly invogourating aura of righteous rage ************
It’s winter somewhere 😉
Had this very discussion the other day with my gamer crew and it hit simiar points. The idea certainly isn’t new. Back in the day the system was GURPs, more recently Pathfinder and now 5th Ed. One thing I do think helps is if the games have themes that are not too far apart, Game Designers Workshop did a pretty good effort back in the day aligning thier roles playing games Traveller-The New Era , Twighlight 200, Cadilacs and Dinosours, and Dark Consiparacy. It worked well because they were all adventure/Sci-Fi to some degree, with crossovers in themes and action.
There are WAYYYYY too many rule books in common usage (at least for historicals). Too many rulebooks that all employ there own specific basing system, there own figure ratio etc etc….
…and the end result in this is that it splits the playerbase, makes it harder to find games, and perhaps this (in part) is responsible for the drop in popularity of historicals in favour of sci-fi/fantasy.
Sci-fi/fantasy is a bit different as usually it’s all about the IP (the rules are secondary) in the decision to purchase. But for historicals?
Well first, are you going to play a grand tactical style game (where the figures are based on a “diorama” style static base), “tactical” level game (where you move the figures around in formation), or a skirmish level game (where you move individual figures around).
Next the figures themselves, 28mm, 15mm, 10mm, 6mm, or even 2mm?
Basically if you go to a club night you’ll probably find a few with a Napoleonic army each, but due to the rule set each player has adopted (or figure scale) that the armies are incompatible for getting a game in. I do in a way envy players with Space Marine armies, because they KNOW if the opponent has collected Space Marines they KNOW what rule set is going to be used.
When I started gaming Napoleonics were 15mm and Newbury Quick Play (Newbury as in a Wargames club that published it’s own in house rules). 15mm dues to cost (as 25mm metals were just too expansive), and Newbury because there wasn’t another set that was easily available (and even if you used a different ruleset, the rules authors had adopted the Newbury Basing system, so you didn’t have to rebase your entire army).
Nowadays rules authors seek to “lock you in” to their specific rule system. Sometimes this is driven in part because the rules have been published by a figure manufacturer wanting to sell you their figures. A perfect example of this is the new ACW rules/figures from Warlord. Buy your armies from them and you are pretty much locked into buying their figures and rules (as other sets of rules will struggle to be converted to use bases of 20 figures 2 ranks deep).
Gone are the common basing standards, and everyone is trying to do their own thing and make it difficult for players to change. So yes there are too many rule books, but it’s not going to change (as the big manufacturers have the marketing budget to drown out the smaller independents and stop their rules getting any traction in gaming circles).
Simple or complicated? Trick question here. I’d say as complicated as needs to to reflect the period. As periods in wargaming change, so does the technology. As the technology changes, so does the complexity.
Rules for a Dark Age game “should” be simpler than a set of WW2 rules, however there’s also a finite amount of player attention available when it comes to rules. So rather than making a set of Dark Age rule just “simple” there’s also room to go perhaps more “in depth” in areas that you couldn’t in a set of WW2 rules (such as morale). This has pretty much been the trend since the 1980s through to the early 00s (thus the idea of the era sets the complexity now goes out the window). Lately however rules have become overly simple (and this being marketed as a virtue), using card driven mechanics, “battle boards” (when we used to use pen and paper) etc etc. Alas this has got to the point where the rules don’t reflect the period they are supposed to represent very well. Other than the overwhelming mass of “skirmish” level gaming rules, when it comes to mass battle then the rules published in the last decade haven’t been very good (Still using Johnny Reb II here for my ACW games and that was published over 25 years ago).
Yay let the XLBS hilarity begin.
Asimov is a great sci-fi writer for quality book’s.
Justin is recovering from the water Warren gave him??? Lol
That black lightsaber one’s handle would make a good darkelder tower.
We’ll see Warren being chatted up by one of the Kardashians now?
You should have went for land near dyce then you could have been a Lord of dyce @warzan
I think, if I remember rightly, Plo Koon used an orange lightsabre in the old Jedi Power Battles videogame….
Gah, and @warzan just got to the relevant page in the video 😀
Another great show Guys loved the ender video.
I would hate to be restricted to the number of rule sets available. We enjoy reading and playing new rules, if a ruleset is bad then it won’t (with the exception of G.W.) get any real traction with gamers and will disappear. In terms of thematic rule systems Peter Pig is always a good one to look at and for army lists that don’t allow max/min By Fire and Sword. What really makes a good game for me is not the rules, but the people I game with. One issue I do have with rule sets and explaining them to new players is the actual layout and indexing of the rule book. That is one area where I do think many rules systems fall down badly.
I still use Legends of the High Seas which was based on the old LotR rules. I haven’t found a better set of rules for pirates.
I like the idea of an open source rule set, it would make life easier switching games and genres. The problem we have these days is trying to remember all the different rules systems we play.
By the way @warzan I’m called Bixia Shuai which is Chinese for Handsome Majesty or Handsome King. I get called that by friends and family in China………(My wife gave me the name after teaching her sarcasm…but I’m still called a King lol)
@warhammergrimace I’d like to check out your ‘Legends of the High Seas’ rules for Pirate play. Who makes it? I’ve found more than one set of rules that use that name.
I’m curious to see the differences between it and Firelock Games ‘Blood and Plunder’ and ‘Oak and Iron’. Which I currently use and love.
There is always room for more rulesets in my hobby room! (I guess I don’t agree with Warren at all on this subject) 🧐
Legends of the high Seas is an old Warhammer Historical rule set.
I love SAGA and Age of Magic. My gaming group is not really interested in history while I am. With SAGA’s rules being 1 core set expended per universe. So my friends can make fantasy armies and I can do more historical stuff. In Age of Magic the factions are really archetypes and you can do what you want with. I’m getting into the more historical SAGA universes as well and I don’t think my gaming group will follow, but because the rules are so similar I think I can play an Age of Hannibal army against an Age of Magic army without problems or having to write any rules. It won’t be perfectly balanced, but we play for fun, not competition.
The moment he puts the nun chucks under his arms is the moment the arm gets chopped off XD