Weekender XLBS: The Daring Raid Of St Nazaire & What’s Next For Warlord Games?
March 26, 2017 by dignity
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Happy Sunday!!
St Nazaire huh? OK – I’ll roll with it for now,but you’d better have a damned good justification and nail it historically.
Uh-oh… Warren and historical accuracy? Unless Jim has been sat at the other end of a line with a monitor and a button he can press every time Warren mangles history, a button that delivers a nasty electric shock. That is how Jim’s going to operate isn’t it?
My justification is i think it will make for one of the most interesting ‘gamifications’ of a mission out there.
There are distinct phases to the operation and sooo much going on, its challeging but i think coukd be a really meaty scenario!
And the opportunity to add in some custom game mechanics is pretty irresistable!
Interesting idea. I will be interested to see how the naval and landing parts are meshed together on one or more tables
The challenges are really interesting in this obviously scale (we’ll run 15mm this time) and ratio (got to bring the mini count down to a managable level) are big ones, but also working out the various objectives that made up the operation… then the crucial aspects of what timeline events do we run on rails (is it a given the destroyer makes it, or detonates when it did) and what events do we gamify.
@warzan If your doing it in 15mm i suggest a Skirmish rule set like Chain of command or dropping bolt action down to 15mm.
there are at least two scenarios
1. the approach with the boats and the Campbeltown see how many men you can get there,
2, the fight on the docks
Getting the Campbeltown built will be interesting there is a 1:600 scale model available, but 1:100 scale is frigging huge for a game,
You could do the appraoch in a smaller scale maybe 1:350/6mm and then the fight in the docks at 15mm
I think the plan is to keep it all on one table if at all possible. I’m currently scoping out the size and makeup of the table based on reference maps and aerial photos of the time, based on a 1:100, 8×4 table.
That said, having a much smaller map off to the side that represents, tracks, and resolves the initial approach might be a good idea.
I hesitate to make this a full part of the game because it’s almost entirely one sided. The Germans shooting at the British Campbeltown and MLs, and not much shooting back (mostly machine guns on these ships – Campbeltown had single 12-pounder gun mounted on the fo’c’sle and eight 20 mm Oerlikon AA guns).
All these ideas are great, though. I just need some time to settle down, draft some proposals, and submit them to Warren. 😀
the Avalon Hill solo game version of the raid had some interesting mechanics on the ship’s approach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scjXp7Vg6Ec
Well if Donald Featherstone, one of the pioneers and soulfathers of our wargaming hobby, says it’s one of the coolest raids then OK.
Donald often agrees with me 😉 lol
Justification? The justification is that it’s awesome. 😀 Granted, some of the construction and game design elements will pose a significant challenge. Building the destroyer at 1:100 scale would actually be easy enough (been scratch-building WW2 warships since I was 11 … and that was a LOOOOONG time ago). It’s getting across the Atlantic that will be tough. Also, building those twelve Motor Launches will be a bit of a challenge.
Where I really sympathize with the team is the construction of the port itself. Urban boards are always tough because of the number of buildings. Also, this will be a port, so “standard” WW2 French farm buildings won’t work. Furthermore, as a port, the whole land part of the table will have to be raised up above the blue water. To do this at 1:100 we’ll need the largest possible table, i.e., 8×4 . . . because just the destroyer will be 3’2″ long.
We won’t be able to fit the entire Normandie dock on there, it would be 11 feet long at 1:100. But we can get one end of it, where HMS Campbeltown mashed into the gate (the gate would be about 1’8″ wide, 4″ thick and 6″ high).
Long story short, it’s awesome, and it will be hard. These are the reasons to do it. If we all struck to easy games, the name of the site would be “Beasts of Checkers.” 😀
If its 15mm plenty of train scenary available for dockyards at HO scale I think is equiv to 15mm. And why not do a 12′ x 4′ table, to fit everything on, plus you would have the ability to split into 3 4×4 battles to play concurrently…
It’s close, @nakchak . I think HO scale is 1:87, and 15mm is technically 1/100. Might be close enough, though. I would say it is, since infrastructure at a port tends to be oversized and in such a case the 1:87 “discrepancy” would actually work to our advantage. 😀
Great idea!
Here is a thought, make the table U shaped with the water area open for people to get in and around. With the set up area that the boot camps use there would be lots of room to put it together. Seeing as there really wouldn’t be any reason to start the game until the attack is in full swing, as the defense would easily just decide to bombard the ship early.
Thus the ship is beached on the gate and the launches have landed… now it is time to get to work.
St Nazaire was the one that has space marines in it wasn’t it? 😀
Happy Sunday
Happy sunday!
Lovely 4ground building, looking forward to seeing the whole range and the game. Also, if I get into some fantasy tabletop rpg, I’d really like to try the Fabled Realm setting and mix it up with some minis battle 🙂
Tell you what, one of the best tellings of the St Nazaire raid I’ve seen was by (surprisingly) Jeremy Clarkson as part of his War Stories series. Brilliant stuff.
Yep its flippin fabulous, im just hoovering up stuff on the raid at the moment and it is one of the best, there is also a really good behind the scenes about making that episode 🙂
I think there was a film starring Lloyd Bridges back in the day as well. Can;t for the life of me remember the name of it though….
Funnily enough though I finally got around to watching the documentary Channel 4 did on the Dambuster mission to sink Tirpitz after it was deployed to Norway following the destruction of St Nazaire’s dry-dock.
Another extraordinary operation, but one thing that blew my mind: as the Lancasters approached on their bombing run Tirpitz started off by elevating it’s main guns and using it’s 1t shells as the preliminary AA barrage….
Attack on the iron coast 🙂
Attack on the iron coast is the movie of the raid..
Thanks for that. Just watched it! Brilliant stuff!
Can’t wait to see the 4Ground stand at Salute this year.
Warlord was taking about modern the other day…. could try can get the rights for Ghost recon etc ? anyway off to watch the show
The late Great Donald Featherstone, who sadly passed away in 2013, is widely regarded as the Father of modern wargaming, 1960’s onwards! He courageously served during WW2, as did many of his contemporaries who published books and articles on wargaming. There is a vast wealth of useful gaming and historical data to be gleaned from his 40+ publications. Enjoy at leisure and remember, this man was writing about gaming long before there were any big manufacturing companies on the subject.
I would add Jim Dunnigan as one of the”Gods of Wargaming,” one of the giants of Avalon Hill during its 1960s-70s glory days. Designer of PanzerBlitz in 1969 (originally “State Farm 69” and “Tactical Game 3”, the first modular, scenario-driven wargame commonly available to the public (sold 300,000 copies). Seriously designed over 160 other games. Founded SPI, the company that is home of many of the most accurate, properly-scaled, intellectually challenging wargames ever designed. Saved Strategy & Tactics Magazine, which has been running since 1960s and has a wargame in every single issue, and has now spawned sister publications World at War and Modern War periodicals (can you tell I subscribe to all three) – rounds it all off as a consultant for Department of State and Department of Defense, and has won awards as the 20th Century’s most influential Adventure and Wargame Designer.
This man is “the man.” Anyone who’s ever played, designed, or sold a wargame . . . ever . . . (well, since the late 1960s) owes him a gigantic debt of gratitude.
I think we are indebted to a lot of people who all progressed wargaming to what it is today either independently or in small groups. People like Scruby,Bath, Griffiths,Grant to name but a few
I promised myself no more kickstarters for a while but them Iron crow dwarves look amazing.
Happy Sunday Guys. OMG I love those Warlord Paras.
Happy Sunday guys,
@johnlyons nice job on the Khador buddy and good luck with the fourth attempt at getting into the game.
@dignity great job too on your WM. Really liking the leader character and I like the idea of the different bases for quick selection when looking to give an intro. What are you thinking for basing her?
@brennon I have to admit in recent years my card gaming has slowly chaged. We were all MTG Commander players who would have them on us whenever we went to a hobby event or for in the evenings at Salute. Now we have turned to card games that are co-operative. I think as we have gotten older we have melowed to the point where we don’t have that competitive edge we used. One of the ones which has proven to be a transition for us is Call of Cthulhu: the card game which has then seen us move onto Arkham Horror living card game. This has seen us now start to take boxsets and boardgames in addition to cards to events to fill our evenings.
Loving the new stuff from the 4Ground guys and the fact that each building will have a scenario for each building and looking forward to seeing the faction expansions and the different buildings for the different races. Wishing well is interesting to have a scenario for and look forward to hearing what they come up with. I aready have a couple of ideas ased around the use of a special coin as an objective.
@dignity will we now see a Finnish Saga force in your future?
@warzan interested to see this latest project some to life. I imagine you have already done a lot of reading up knowing you but wondered if you realised you can get this. A digital copy of the model used for the briefing which is in the Imperial War Museum. Figured it could be useful for the board building and stage by stage briefing siilar to the ones Oriskany used at the FoW Boot Camp s they were a really useful tool.
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018075
Also I had missed the special glasses adjustment touch. I still think theres a drinking game waiting to happen there 🙂
British Airborne *dribble*
Totally awesome shrine!!!!!!
My first knowledge of St Nazaire was I think it was letrasets action diorama with extra large background and rub on decals
Fun days
Ah it was Remus
http://www.action-transfers.com/html/picturama/nazaire.shtml
Hmmmm – some slightly exaggerated imagery there. The ship has grown in size considerably and has managed to bend those drydock gates. 😉
Good grief, @coxjul , I see what you mean. On that last image on the first page, Campbeltown is the size of King George V!
I remember some of these rub-off decal sheets when I was a kid (like 8 years old). Damn, what a nice little, half-remembered memory. Thanks, @torros!
There is an old black and white movie about the raid on St Nazaire. Also wouldn’t some of the individual aspects of the raid work well as 25mm scenarios.
How is that not an epic movie? I want to go watch it now.
Years ago my gaming group had thougt about doing St Nazair as a demo at shows , though we had been looking at a coastal naval game in 1/600th using alot of the kytrex range . Trouble was I tend to be the one who has to make and paint everything and had tom
many projects at time to start it. I shall watch this project with great interest.Sorry about break in post using Xbox controller to type .
Avalon Hill I think it was did a good board game based on the raid
Avalon Hill is always my first stop, @torros . Not only is their historical research very very good, but they’ve already “translated” the history into a game system you can use for ideas, inspiration, or just the whole game. 😀
Loving the idea of the St. Nazaire raid
As companies continue to raise the bar, “doesn’t look like an MDF building” is becoming as redundant as “great detail for 15mm”. Nevertheless, I continue to be stunned by 4Ground’s bar-raising.
Happy Sunday!
Great looking temple there from 4Ground. I particularly like the internal etchings of the goddess and her aspects.
Loved the segment on St Nazaire, I’m in the midst of exploring WW2 myself at the moment both on the table and just in general researching so rather nice timing really :).
Hmm warlord seem to be taking some ideas from Very British Civil War with the Mosley… Oswald was imprisoned in early 1940 so will be interesting to see how they work him into a WW2 Sealion scenario.
That was one of the finest 2 hours of XLBS that I have ever sat through…. next time some whiney git complains about the miniscule price of being a backstager show them this.
Some comments….. those 4ground guys, I love them. I want their game so badly …. just because they are so enthusiastic about it. I have to be away for a couple of weeks so I’m hesitant to order anything in at the moment , but when I get back I am ordering some Fabled realms buildings so i am ready to go …………..(I didn’t know this game existed until a week ago , now I want it badly)
Future of Bushido looks good …. but I am probably still leaning to test of honour. if I dive into an Oriental skirmisher. The two wild west games look great (I remember the pirate game Justin spoke about it was excellent … however in the interest of not doubling up in genres (Ha I’m playing every table top football game that’s going… sigh) I will stick with WWX ..which I have a large box from the kickstarter that I haven’t painted yet.
The Warlord interview was magic also.. So much cool stuff.
K47 …. I went with the Germans for my stater faction… and the Zeus and the Thor sound just what the doctor ordered. (and expansions … *happy manly squeal)
Bolt Action, Nice to see some Aussie troops ( Z (that’s pronounced Zed in Australian for US readers) Force and Operation Jaywick fascinated me as a young lad ….. might get the troops just to paint up. A New Guinea Supplement as well, I am going to have to Bolt Action)
Pike and Shotte was my first dive into historical gaming. In particularly I wanted to do the English Civil War… the supplement hadn’t been released so I didn’t do much with it, don’t have an excuse anymore 😉 (Their King and Country Supplement is excellent too, by the way )
BtGoA is a top little game also, good to see them getting some love. The more plastic troops the better as far as I am concerned. . whew.. as I said a top interview.
Then we had Warren and Jim’s cameo, and wasn’t it a ripper. I knew nothing about this but what a story. Great stuff. I hope you guys do bring it to tabletop. Thanks Warren and Jim, I was enthralled .
and then Ben finishes with a kickstarter about Dwarfs …. and that’s the perfect way to end a show, with one of my favourite Kickstarters off all time ( for the Dwarfiest Dwarfs that have ever dwarfed , since Dwarfs started dwarfing)
Big Thanks
PS One thing that has been worrying me since Jim was announced to be on the BoW team ……. The invasion of the North Pole is still going ahead again this year isn’t it ?????
Don’t worry I doubt @oriskany will let December come with out a fight up north
I’m not sure this episode is a convincing argument against such whiners. At least it wouldn’t be for me if I were one of them – I skipped the entire oriskany section and found the Warlord section rather dull, but that’s because I have zero interest in WW2 and the featured Warlord games. I’m sure if you are interested in those things it was a cracker of an episode, but that’s not the case for everyone. But that is not a cause for complaint as I’m sure there will be XLBS episodes that have those things marginalised and have a heavy focus on fantasy/sci-fi/etc and people who enjoy WW2 but not those things will find it interesting; swings and roundabouts really.
So basically this is a long roundabout/rambling way of saying, you need to select the right XLBS for the individual complainer to be a convincing counter to their whine 😉
*will not find it interesting
Watch the segment on saint nazier – you will kick yourself as the story is cracking and would make an amazing sci-fi scenario.
Open your mind buddy because so much of what we talk about can be applied laterally across genres 🙂
Yeah I would agree with this.. In the past we have played a few scifi scenarios based on historical ones. Works really well
@warzan: fair points but I’m okay missing it. WW2 really doesn’t interest me (other than Dad’s Army and ‘allo ‘allo, but even then their draw has more to do with the comedy than the setting) and it just doesn’t engage me enough to dredge through it to pull out aspects that can be applied elsewhere. And I’m fine with that.
My point wasn’t that this episode is a bad one (or that the St. nazier segment was worthless) but rather it’s not the sure fired counter argument to the whiners that bearddragon asserted it was and that to be convincing you’d* need to tailor the (list of) example episode(s) to the individual whiner rather than pointing every single whiner to this one episode.
My point was also that I’m sure that some other week you guys will put out a fantasy or sci-fi heavy episode that some who enjoyed this episode would find a snoozefest even if there are elements they can lift out for their historic games while those that didn’t find this episode engaging would be glued to the screen. As I said, swings and roundabouts.
*for clarity ‘you’ refers to the person trying to convince the whiner, I’m not suggesting the BoW team make custom tailored episodes for everyone lol
Yep
I wasn’t responding to the worthwhile episode bit 🙂
I brought up saint nazier in passing I front of Andy Chambers who instantly recognised it and started talking about it.
Look at the influences of all the writers of the great sci-fi and fantasy games and I gauarntee you the stuff you love most in those genres has stepped right out of the pages of a history book 😉
On this segment saint nazier – there is nothing for you to wade through or pull apart, just an amazing story of an impossible mission going ahead against all the odds and the increadible twists and turns that happened during it.
I’m giving you a nudge here to try this one, I was in the segment so I have a fair idea that you may actually enjoy it. 🙂
@warzan: good points, and I agree that many fantasy and sci-fi stories have inspiration drawn from history, although for many people the interest is how that’s built upon and/or the lenses it’s filtered through that draws them in where the source doesn’t. For example, Star Wars draws heavily on WW2 films, and Lucas even spliced in footage from those films as a holding place while waiting for the special effects to be finished when he held a test screening (in fact there are even some scenes that are shot for shot remakes of that footage) and, for example, the trench run is directly lifted from the Dam Busters. Nevertheless I have no inclination to watch the Dam Busters or any of the other WW2 films that Lucas drew upon because for whatever reason the setting of early 20th Century real life doesn’t hold my interest the same way the Space Opera of Star Wars does.
Also, calling back to Dad’s Army, as I said I enjoy that despite the setting because of the strengths of its other elements. If we were to take it out of the WW2 setting and transpose it into, say, Romano Britain up on Hadrian’s Wall I’d probably enjoy it more because I find that period of history more interesting than WW2 and that’s probably analogous to the change from something like the Dam Busters to something like Star Wars. Conversely if we took Up Pompeii! and transposed it into WW2 (transposing Lurcio from a Roman Slave to say the head butler in a Downton Abbey type house), I’d enjoy it less than I do with it in the original Roman setting.
As for enjoying the segment because you’re in it, possibly, and if the segment were just you and Justin I probably would not hesitate to give it a go (although like the aforementioned Dad’s Army the draw would have more to do with the comedy than the subject matter). I’m a bit hesitant to say this, but I think one of the other things that’s holding me back from watching it is oriskany (sorry oriskany 🙁 ). Let me stress I am *not* complaining about him, especially considering how much work he puts into contributing to BoW and the BoW community. I can’t say why I don’t enjoy listening to him; the best analogy I can think of is say you have one teacher that cracks you up and another that doesn’t engage you; neither is a bad teacher, but you’re more reluctant to go to the latter’s lessons than the former’s and it just compounds the problem when the subject is one you’re not that interested in (again, sorry oriskany). Again, I’m not knocking him and think he is an invaluable member of the BoW team.
I suppose the best/most up beat way to sum things up is that while I may be missing out by skipping the segment, the stuff I don’t skip in other XLBS and other Backstager exclusives more than make up for it 🙂
@warzan: mulling it over, I’ll give the segment another go. I won’t promise that I’ll be able to get through it, but I will give it a try, and I’ll try and come up with an idea for a 40k scenario based on it for you. (Will have to wait until tomorrow though as it’s getting a bit late atm 😉 )
That’s the spirit and I’m really looking forward to your thoughts on porting to 40k especially with the shiner new plastic thunder hawk on the way 🙂
And just to be extra clear as it’s a little embarrassing I didn’t mean watch it because I’m in it!!!! Lol
I meant I knew the content of the segment and it is highly unlikely to be like what you are imagining it to be 🙂
Remember I was in exactly the same boat a handful of years ago before flames of war for the win was being filmed.
I then learned that all the game designers (priestly, sawyer, Cavatore, chambers etc) who brought me the coolest of 40k were totally into military history – and now I understand a lot more about why 🙂
Hence the nudge on this one as it might surprise you – and again I’m looking forward to your 40k thoughts on it 🙂
I knew it was going to be Operation Chariot 😎
100% approval from me (as if it made a difference lol). This is sooo super awesome!!
I’m totally on board if you need anything painted 🙂
I paint 15mm WW2 Infantry with one hand (left!) tied to my back and half asleep!
I’d suggest battlefront’s BEF figures as their commandos are late war and they certainly would have worn helmets. They have lots of Germans that would fit the bill although I’ve got to check if they also do Kriegsmarine units..
The Warlord Bolt Action stuff looks great, the Paras in particular!! Can’t wait can’t wait can’t wait..
Shame they didn’t bring the plastic King Tiger they showed off at Adepticon 😎
Very exciting show gentlemen.
Thanks
I have 136 British infantry painted in 15mm for the Operation Sea Lion series, including Bren gun teams and other units (okay, mortar teams and PIAT teams might not be appropriate for Chariot). I could send them over if it would make things easier, if I get them back. 😀
hmmm Well you know what happened when you lent us a Destroyer
Good call, @huscarle . I can picture @dignity and @johnlyons blowing up my 15mm British behind the studio with firecrackers in the name of “completing a vital mission.” 😀 😀 😀
Plastic Algoryn Command Squad. Gimme!
wouldn’t it be better in 6mm minis then you could do it 1:1 scale??
I’m getting excited for 4ground’s Fabeled Realms game!!!!
I’m getting excited for 4ground’s Fabled Realms game!!!!
Happy Sunday!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLpmmX_vKCI
I think with ECW everything you read has to be followed by ” At least we think that’s the way it was….”
Personally I think Thirty years war is more interesting
Very nice show guys.
Awesome stuff.
John has a nice pair of jugs hehe
Happy sunday, guys…
My John what a lovely pair of jugs.
Cracking story. Off topic but what is the box to the left of batman with what looks like a goblin in n huge armour?
If we are doing cool quirky raids can we have some love for the Battle of Taranto? November 1940. Biplanes out of their era completing a dangerous raid against a valuable asset during early WW2 desperate British attempts to remain dominant in the Mediterranean.
Not sure how easy it would be to game but I hope it could be up for consideration.
Great show.
Really enjoyed Warren’s enthusiasm for the St. Nazaire project.
The game specific fabled realms scenery with scenarios sounds awesome. This will give 4Ground the edge over some companies. Delivering cool high quality terrain that is perfectly tailored to not only to a certain game, but to a particular piece of narrative within that game?
So much potential.
I hope it all goes well.
Happy SUNDAY really liking the 4ground fabled realms setting and concepts, and loving the Black Scorpion western figures.
HMA Campbeltown kit is available from Revell. Its 1:240 scale (I had one asa kid and its about 11″ long) which I think would work on a 4×8 table with an estuary leading to the dry dock. It comes as a USA 4 piper destroyer but here is a ton on the web as to how to convert into the modified ship used during the raid.
Unless you wanted to go with a really long table to give the estuary its full length; the speeds of the boats/ship could be reduced in scale giving the German player a time line more historical to identify and engage. This could also be a cool mechanic where the British player make a decision each turn as to his speed, the faster he goes the greater chance of detection or damage from river obstacles.
Looking forward to seeing how this all comes out. Love the show and I look forward to meeting you all next weekend.
A little added research to my earlier. There is a Z destroyer kit available in 1:100, which you could retro to the Campbeltown. Its 54″ long! Concerning the Revell model I spoke about, Revell’s web site states its 15 1/2″ long.
Really good show, thanks for the journey!!! As for the replay of the Raid… the only thing I guess I’d be worried about is “what if the destroyer doesn’t make it”.. so you almost have to set it up so that the destroy IS going to crash.. which of course takes away some of the risk and excitement… so then are you just playing the Commando action after they hit the walls and start to do their 2ndary objectives? Or do you have a way to have the Germans do more damage to the ship before it crashes to reduce the effectiveness of the Commandos?
Actually @dignity , for my imperial guards army, I don’t allow myself to buy anything unless what I have is already assembled and painted… But I have so many ork projects on the shelves… And an entire army of raven guards waiting to get painted… And my Myth stuff… And my Infinity stuff… And my gaming table and terrain for which I have so any incomplete projects… And some more boardgames miniatures I’d like to get painted one day…
😛
The St. Nazaire sounds like a blast. literally.
Good luck and great show.
Loving the idea of gaming the raid, I am an ex Royal Navy man, my father an ex Royal Marine Commando (combat engineer) who served in Aden this is the only combined mission that does not get the inter service rivalry going.
The day i passed out as a sailor after basic training he was approached by my commanding officer with my mother and asked if they were proud of me that day, his response ” i can live with the shame of my son being a sailor” my commanding officer laughed and asked what service and when had he served and what followed was a strange exchange of banter from two old soldiers much longer than i was comfortable with lol
i also got to live and serve with Royal Marine Commando’s in the gulf and having seen them in action can say they have earned that green beret and the history that comes with it. truly sterling examples of our nations finest fighting men (Although i will categorically deny ever having said so in a marines presence lol)
Happy Sunday! The new building from 4ground looks good, can’t wait to see more.
My story of card games is a good example of how many peoples hobby goes n cycles. I my early teen and student days I was a GW gamer (early 40k, Fantasy 3rd edition, Epic etc) but later as I started work ad took on a ready made family of five step children I just couldn’t find the time to paint and model
CCG’s were a godsend. Opening the packs. Sort the cards, build the deck and you are ready to go. I played Spellfire, Middle Earth CCG, Magc, WarCry, 40k CCG, Game of Thrones, UFS and others.
Before the concept of living card games this was just as expensive as miniature gaming but as I have said I found it a lot less time consuming.
Now I have gone full circle. Kids are grown and flown and I am back primarily to miniature wargaming. I still have tens of thousands of cards and often grab a fun game of something at my gaming club to kill 20 minutes and I participate in magic draft events when I can.
Card games are not as expensive as they used to be with better access to single card sellers and LCG games with fixed content purchases but for me they lack the craft element of miniature gaming that really gives me a buzz.
oh wow i won a prize! Thanks a lot guys this is going to be so sweet for my Walking Dead All Out War, there will be a chain-link fence and a skeleton hanging off it surrounding a playground for sure!
Happy Sunday
love how the guys from 4 Ground are so excited about the hobby and what they do. keep up the good work guys.
Card games are have been a big part of gaming life in recent years. They can provide a variety of strong and easily accessible gaming experiences. I’ve dabbled in all the FFG LCGs, with A Game of Thrones my favourite, play some Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn and Vs, as well as deckbuilders like Star Realms, DC, and Legendary.
I’ve written up a look at FFGs latest LCG offering in Arkham Horror, which is a co-op game that incorporates board game elements – https://tldr350.wordpress.com/2017/03/26/arkham-horror-lcg/
Like the sound of 4Ground’s Fabled Realm’s terrain each having a dedicated scenario that can be used with it. Having something narrative like that is a nice touch and I think most if not all of us have wanted to play games with a specific piece of terrain as the focus and which has an impact on the game beyond the regular rules for that type of terrain; it’s nice that people can do that without having to worry about balanced special rules as with this system they can just grab a piece that catches their eye from their collection, lay it down on the table and just start playing. 🙂
Great show
Great xlbs again guys, keep up the good work.
Love seeing mire of the 4ground stuff, like you im excited to see their new upcoming game
thanks for highlighting card games Ben, your the best. its the things that card games do that miniatures games don’t that interest me most. the in depth hacking in Netrunner or the politics and back stabbing of game of thrones for example. a good narrative experience in any genre is always welcome. I’m looking forward to hearing the responses. good look with the Game of Thrones tournament.
I would like to offer a different perspective on the too many minis and game systems point.
I think butterflying on the winds of shinny syndrome while letting you experience multiple worlds and genres does so at the expense of a deeper experience.
now folks seem to read a rulebook, paint a few minis, get a few games in and then move on to the next project. it gives a very surface level immersive experience that stands in stark contrast the hobby of my youth. long years of deeply immersive experiences with characters and narratives that were forged over long summers and deep winters. worlds in which you had walked its many paths. its streams, woods and towns as familiar as your own.
there is just no way you can replicate the detail or immersiveness of this while butterflying.
there are other issues to consider, like how it’s skewing the line between streamlined and dumbed down, but that’s a different story for a different day.
thank you guys for the infinity live stream, it was very much appreciated.
Thanks for another XLBS.
Got me inspired to paint all day 🙂
So much cool games, so many unpainted minis.
Ofcourse I can’t buy new minis with so many unpainted 🙂
ssssst
oh and Ben was totally justified in showing off those fabulous dwarves.
we have seen a lot of fantastic dwarves of late but these were the most characterful by far.
you should also look at Dieppe Raid, The Intelligence Raid the Allies attempted
one last thing, please take a look at blacksmith miniature world of Jean Baptiste Monge kickstarter. I can’t be the only one who thinks it’s stunning
Great work on the jacks @johnlyons @dignity john Airfix do/did a bailey bridge try them. You will have to get a Lloyd Bridges figure for the game guys? The Tirpitz’s was bigger/heaver than Bismarck because they redesigned/updated the plans between builds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Tirpitz
The US got the Prinz Eugen and nuked her guys. http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/german/prinz_eugen.html
The dock was the only one that could take the big ships for repairs on the Atlantic coast.
You cruel cruel buggers @brennon gets it again Love the show guys
If that raid isnt a film yet, it needs to be.
yes its called attack on the iron cost with Lloyd bridges in it heirs a link. @ugleb
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=attack+on+the+iron+coast&&view=detail&mid=D23BAF688637D36655D5D23BAF688637D36655D5&FORM=VRDGAR
Great episode, really liked the interviews with 4ground & warlord, the bit about Operation Chariot was great, really looking forward to seeing how this project goes forward over the time.
What a great story about British fortitude and the ability to persevere, regardless the circumstance. Also the 4 ground buildings and stories behind them are great.
Awesome stuff! The lads done good!
Over whelming weekenders both of them packed with enthusiasm .There’s a lot to get excited about this year.
The fact many were ex-teachers makes you wonder how bad the kids were..
that was awesome, Ben without sound going at it.. great show and amazing news. i would love to see the St Nazaire Raid played in a way where you zoom in on the action of the commandos around the dock and anywhere else they were able to infiltrate and show off some of the skirmish fights, that could be another way of breaking down the action throughout the table where some players will be engaged in the skirmish stuff all over the board while some leading the big scale operation. it is indeed a great scenario to explore.
as far as card games, i don`t have much experience but did took interest since last year in magic the gathering, love the cards and the collecting aspect, although i didn`t do much playing since i don`t have a circle of friends who play it and it`s a bit intimidating trying to break into a community in the local gaming store, especially since i`m still learning, but i would love to know more about other card games.
@brennon I took a real good swing at MtG a while back and bounced off real hard. I probably stuck with it for a year, even won one of their alternate art cards and a few other little things here and there. The community was friendly enough but what I found is that the game itself just wasn’t at all welcoming at least to me. While you can build very flavourful decks I often found building around fluff, even with a good deck, would get you stomped flatter than a pancake and quickly at that. That and the group I ran into had to be dragged kicking and screaming away from playing commander with the same deck they’d been using for years; not my place to do that with an established group 🙂
I do like the idea of card games though, perhaps a LCG would ultimately suit me better. I’ve also been eyeing Force of Will but the only place in the city to play it is liable to get you carjacked and given tetanus. So I’ve turned to online card games and the one that’s just gripped my attention is Shadowverse (steam or iOS). There are seven distinct deck archetypes which are determined by the leader you pick and you’re limited to five amulets/monsters on the field at a time. The constraint of limiting your field plus the balancing that can happen online have got me pretty good. The fully voiced and illustrated cards help too (from anime to fantasy to horror, so there’s some variety).
Tsk, All that bluster @oriskany about using a loaned American ship for a crazy Commando plan to make a massive ship bomb. You’re just upset that we didn’t think of it first. 😀 Because you know we would completely do something like that with somebody else’s property.
But hearing @warzan say that part of the plan involved possibly ramp-jumping a destroyer completely over the dry-dock gates, I’m sure that there had to have been Americans in on the planning of this. 😉 😀 Mainly because a plan like this has “Hey Vern, hold my beer. Watch this!!” written all over it.
You know how it is, @enginseer – here among all these Brits and Irishmen, someone’s gotta stand up for “Good Ole’ ‘Mericuh.” 😀
They talk about Fireflies being “British Shermans.” Grants being British tanks, Honeys being British tanks . . .
Hey. These are all American tanks. Sometimes with better British guns. But these tanks, ships, etc . . . are American. Just saying. Putting British components into American equipment very often made it very good (best examples are probably the Firefly and the Mustang – an honestly mediocre fighter until the British Merlin engine was installed in it).
But the British fighting naval actions through fire, bomb, and ram ships is a tradition that goes way back to 1588. Spanish Armada, anyone?
Pro tip to everyone – never lend the British any warships! 😀 😀 😀
After watching this I went looking for stuff on Operation Chariot and I found “Great Raids of World War II” on Netflix. The episode on St. Nazaire was a bit scant on detail, but they’re only half-hour episodes. The consistent info, in my quick search, seems to be that there were 24 Mark VII depth charges that made up the bomb on the Campbeltown. A Mark VII seems to about 450 lbs, which puts the weight about 5.4 tons.
Another episode that was completely mind-blowing was about the Cockleshell Heroes of Operation Frankton. The plan was for twelve commandos in six collapsible “canoes” to paddle 70 miles upriver to Nazi-held Bordeaux in order to place limpet mines onto ships in the port there.
They paddled 20 miles each night, evading patrol boats and search lights and sleeping during the day on the river bank in camouflaged blinds. Once the charges were set, they paddled quietly out the port and set out to walk to a contact in the Resistance that would help them get back to England.
I’m really looking forward to what content @oriskany will bring to BoW. Even if I don’t play the ruleset they happen to be playing, learning about history is always fun. I’ve gotta say to everyone at BoW, I’m impressed how the business is expanding and improving constantly. Keep up the good work.
It almost seems like the Weekender is more General..and the XLBS is sorta going all HIstorical
Ahhhh Justin referring to the Aussies as Canadian… haha that was gold.
The people of 4ground got a new convert 😉
Love to see all of the Fables Realms, and can’t wait to play in it.
Got some real Iconic pathfinder/D&D character that love a comeback from their retirement 🙂 🙂
British Airborne in plastic! So happy!!
So I wanted to talk about card games for a bit.
I come from the competitive world of Magic the Gathering, I have a friend who has represented Australia, I have top 8ed many a PTQ, won many many a GPT back when they were a thing, and my brother has actually managed top 32 for a GP. So I have more than a little experince with the game. And Yes Justin, I can name thousands of magic the gathering cards and recognise them instantly by their artwork it is just a skill you develop.
As for the player bases, I actually have to say I have found the magic community very open and very friendly. More friendly than wargamming to be honest. There is lot less hoops to jump through in the world of card gaming however… competitive magic an regular fun magic are two different things! Like the difference between playing chess with a friend and playing New York Park chess.
I have to say that the problem with Magic is the same problem you get with MMORPGs you either play magic or you don’t. At least for me because I have a competitive nature. See with magic you have to invest money, time and, energy in order to be good there is so much to the game on a competitive level. Quite literally thousands of cards, but in the end there is only maybe a hundred in each standard environment which are the ones you have to watch out for. The point is, it is intense.
Yeah list building it changes from format to format but yeah we used to say something like this 45% deck building 30% piloting 25% luck. You need to have the outs in those die hard situations to get you out, you need to be able to play well to get to that point and you need to be able to have the luck to have that draw! But there is a lot to playing reading people, knowing when to throw, I can still have debates on that now. Like should you mulligan a 7 land hand, well it depends are you the control deck how are you at bluffing have you done the math. Just so, so much goes into the game.
I would say the one advantage you have with wargamming is this, if I bring my Tyranids out ten years from now. Which I did recently every thing is still good. With magic nope not a freaking chance. Some cards may be worth using at some point in time somewhere but that is about it.
But if you want to try card games out what you need to do is try out before Friday night magic play with the people around then, they are great people, they are the people who love the game the most. Of everything that is the thing I miss the most about magic, but unfortunately the place I used to go changed hands and people left and it’s not the same place anymore. We used to go 130km to get there me and my brother. That is how good the scene can be…
So if you want to give it a real go, give it ago.
Comment to win? Don’t mind if i do.
Also, i freaking love getting my dose of gaming and hobby from the doubled barrelled muzzle of twin weekenders!
Yeah Happy Sunday, one great Weekender again!
So many cool and exciting topics, can’t decide where to start.
@johnlyons I like your Khador color coise and paintjob a lot. Is there a project log in the forum I missed? Love to see more pictures.
@oriskany well done Sir – congratulations for joining the team of Beasts of War. I’m curious and excited to see what you and Warren will build around the Commandos and Saint-Nazaire. This is probably the right time to build a WW2 dock yard.
And now I’ll jump over to the 4ground page and order me some additional Fabled Realms bulidings 🙂
Thanks, @tuskar ! 😀
St. Nazaire Raid in 28mm ALL THE WAY 😉
28mm for St, Nazaire? Great idea! Thanks for volunteering to build HMS Campbelltown on 1/56 (okay, that model’s 5′ 7″ long), and the Normandie Dock (19+ feet long at 1/56). So our table is now about 25-30 feet across.
I gotta admit, as impossible as it would be, it would look badass. I would love to see a museum diorama of Op Chariot at that scale. 😀
The Warlord interview has me excited for what this year will bring. Moving K47 forward and more tasty bits for most of the lines. Good stuff all round.
Oh…I……that Konflikt 47 stuf…wow. Must have!
This was a close to finding a suitable model kit for Chariot
Bit prizy though… even more so if you want to blow it up 🙂 would love to see it though
http://www.loyalhannadockyard.com/Narvik.htm
4Ground continues to make hobby porn that I can’t resist. If they make ships I’d be in hobby heaven. A medieval cog too! A couple of companies already do longships (www.tregames.com, darkops.myshopify.com) but you know the 4Ground one would be amazing.
@oriskany, seeing as you are looking at Commando raids, the Gran Sasso raid to free Mussolini? Operation Long Jump?
Btw have you guys heard that there is trouble with the Saga line with Gripping Beast and Tomahawk in some disagreement over stuff?
@horus500 – I do have a pair of 1:100 gliders for Skorzeny’s fallschirmjaeger (originally built for and used during the SeaLion series). Just have to build a “Storch” aircraft and buy a “prisoner Mussolini” figure. 😀
A wargame of Attack on the Iron Coast which often made weekend afternoon showing in the 80s and 90s be awesome to see how you pull this one of 🙂
Jeremy Clarkson did a doco on this back in 2013 if anyone wanted to hear the story again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXusKM5uX0s&t=368s
@warzan Here is an idea for the start of the battle for the ship coming in. It doesn’t have to be modelled up but will let you know how many Commandos you get to start with.
The ship starts 18 sections away (you can make it represent what ever you want miles, kms). Each turn the ship moves one section closer 17, 16 ,15 and so on. Each time the ship moves one section the Germans roll 3 D6 to try and detect if they are friendly or enemies. if they roll the section the ship is on or higher they work out you’re an enemy and start firing (e.g. When the ship is 11 sections away and the roll is 11 or more).
Once This happens work out how many sections you are from the gate and for each section you are short you lose 15 of your Commandos. so if you still have 7 sections to go you would lose 105 of your guys if you started with 500.
I’m super hyped for Fabled Realms. Everything I’m hearing is appealing directly to what I want in a game.
Can’t wait for Salute to see what they bring there.
Zombie Cheers ‘Where everyone gnaws your brain.’
Sorry I’ll get my coat.
Finland , Finland , Finland
The country where I want to be
Pony trekking or camping
or just watch T.V.
Finland , Finland , Finland
It’s the country for me
You’re so near to Russia
so far away from Japan
Quite a long way from Cairo
lots of miles from Vietnam
Finland , Finland , Finland
The country where I want to be
Eating breakfast or dinner
or snack lunch in the hall
Finland , Finland , Finland
Finland has it all
You’re so sadly neglected
And often ignored
A poor second to Belgium
When going abroad
Finland , Finland , Finland
The country where I quite want to be
Your mountains so lofty
Your treetops so tall
Finland , Finland , Finland
Finland has it all
Finland , Finland , Finland
The country where I quite want to be
Your mountains so lofty
Your treetops so tall
Finland , Finland , Finland
Finland has it all
I’m really enjoying the K47 models
Thanks for this guys. I love my Fabled Realms terrain.
Absolutely brilliant xlbs
Interesting story on St. Nazaire. I had never heard it before. That would be an interesting tabletop battle. Participation game maybe?
St. Nazaire sounds awesome. Did hear about that before, but never in this detail. I’ll be looking forward what you guys and new teammember @oriskany make of it. It could be really great.
I have some experience in running Flames of War in attempts to recreate historical battles (e.g. we did D-Day on the 70th anniversary on 5 tables or Market Garden on one 24 ft table). The challenge with that rule system is, that you need to make sure, that it doesn’t result in too much dice rolling. That can get stale quite fast.
On the other hand it’s great to add some mechanics for activating or reserve troops on top of the game. On DDay we did something with normal playing cards and biding with them for reserve troops. So not too much troops where on the table to begin with and then when you lost something really important you can try get something similar back (e.g. I was defending Utah Beach and was really lucky in killing my opponents Bunker Busters, so he used nearly all his resources to get some British AVREs to his beach, which – although not that historical – allowed him to break through later on).
Also there can be some funny gimmicks in there. One turn there were no usefull reserves left for me to bid for (because I got bad cards) so I spent my ressources on a water mine and a submarine attack. I actually managed to sink the HMS Belfast, which was bombarding my beach the entire time.
If you get stuff like this (not exactly like this, but the same kind, you know what I mean) in your game, you will have great fun and the game will it’s story (creating those watercooler moments) all by itself.
Yavohl! A T35 on legs! That looks awesome! And 4Ground…. I need to move INTO their buildings~ and it’s all made of wood! A type of compiled wood! Wood is best.
I will not allow myself to bu…… nah… lol. You guys should check out traditional East Coast Canadian dialects. Some of the older fellows have hard to understand as an understatement.
loving the look of Fabled Realms.
A really great show
And fun scenario for st. Nazaire!
Operation Chariot is certainly an over the top and daring raid. Perfect for the tabletop. Operation Frankton, for me, takes the biscuit for daring, courage and the shear odds stacked against those taking part, but probably not as easy to game.
Loved the Warlord section. I don’t play all of their games, but they all look like a lot of fun. Would love to see BoW do the English Civil War.
And would love to see another Antares campaign book – and global campaign. Although next time I’d like a bit more notice so I can try to get my stuff made in time to participate!