Weekender: Infinity Campaign Announced & Win A FoW German D-Day Bundle!
August 31, 2019 by warzan
Come and join us for another absolutely massive Weekender which is packed with chat about what has been going on in the world of tabletop gaming this week.
Weekender Podcast Download
We have a lot to get stuck into from Kickstarter, Games Workshop and more so as always make sure to let us know your thoughts on everything in the comments below.
Comment To Win - Flames Of War D-Day German Starter Bundle
If you comment here on OnTableTop (two entries) or on Youtube (one entry) you'll get the chance to win yourself a great German army to start playing Flames Of War. This includes an Army, D-Day German Book, Unit Cards and Command Cards. Keep an eye out for their Live Launch on September 7th too!
All you have to do is let us know what you'll be doing with this should you pick it up!
The Start Of WWII In Poland
oriskany and yavasa from the community have been working away on a great forum topic which charts the start of World War II. Come and remember the anniversary of the invasion of Poland by German in their forum topic HERE.
Updates - Spam & Hobby
We are just giving you an update on spam as we've had a lot of problems with weird accounts on the site. As well as that we are going to be moving the Hobby Hangout for now and talking about Community Spotlight on Sunday with the Cult Of Games/XLBS show instead.
Keep an eye out for our community chatter there and get stuck in with the comments of course too.
News
Make sure to check out some of the news we got excited about this week...
- Ossiarch Bonereapers - A new undead faction coming to Age Of Sigmar
- Sisters & Psychics - New stories unfold in Warhammer 40,000 plus a full Adepta Sororitas army!
- Aeronautica Imperialis - Introduce a new dogfighting game into the mix from the folks at Games Workshop
- War In Rohan - A new supplement and some cool miniatures are coming to support Middle-earth wargamers
- ZEN Terrain's Drowned Earth - Check out this awesome modular Shanty Town and our Let's Plays HERE
- Clank! Legacy - Delve into a new take on this deck builder from the folks at Dire Wolf & Renegade Game Studios
Make sure to drop all of your thoughts on this news into the comments and fill us in on something which we might have missed.
Plastic Alchemy Introduction
We take some time to chat with the team behind Plastic Alchemy who are looking to be some of the first people to create their first 3D printable board game, Kordran Conflict. You can sign up to follow all of the news about the game HERE.
Kickstarter
Here are two projects worth checking out and potentially backing...
- Cryptic Explorers - This is a dark and dangerous Sci-Fi dungeon crawler with an insanely good look to it!
- Future World Creator - GameStart Edizioni show off their stunningly colourful tiles, standees and more
Could you be tempted by either of these campaigns?
Have a great weekend!
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It’s the Weekender!
The FoW Slow Grow League is one of the best things that FoW has done for their players to get folks back into the swing of things.
It’s good to see Infinity get some love and a new campaign. I miss the Infinity Weeks of the past!
Have a great weekend mate! 🙂 – Yeah dont worry we’ll have an infinity week before the year is out 😉
Really looking forward to getting my hands on the D-Day German book.
I was going to start painting my Germans, but will wait for this to get released.
Hoping to win the Flames of War goodies! Good luck everybody!
Love he info on the FOW goodies. thanks for that and all the other great goodies.
Thanks guys.
looking forward to another good weekender!
That german army deal looks really good, lots of goodies
I would argue the main difference in the Poish campaign was the luftwaffe and their total air superiority
One of the differences for sure but in 1939 Luftwaffe was not really doing what it was known from the 1940 and up. So, no direct support of ground forces and a lot of operational targets chosen by the Luftwaffe Command.
I completely agree with both on you. 😀
German air supremacy, and they did have air supremacy … was indeed a MASSIVE factor. But this early in the war it was mostly used in an operational rather than a tactical sense … hitting rail lines, communication points, bridges, roads, HQ units, etc … so Poland could not mobilize fully and get their maneuver units concentrated where they needed them in time.
How mobile are the Germans really in 1939? Doesn’t matter. What matters is how much MORE mobile you are than your opponent. And not only were the Germans OVERALL more mobile than the Polish, they then made the Polish LESS mobile by comparison. It’s this “mobility delta” between the two that proves critical.
So if I have ten divisions and you have ten divisions, but I’m always deciding where and when the battles take place, and I’m ensuring that there are three of my divisions on any particular field against just one of yours, the overall balance of power doesn’t matter. I’ll just dissect your force in stages, 3-1 over and over, until you’re finished.
That’s the summary effect of German air supremacy in Poland.
Good morning tabletop friends.
Morning @torfinn! thanks for stopping by!
Might just get back into FOW
It’s the Weekend!
With FoW German season about to beg9n I’m going to have to restrain myself. I don’t need everything…
…or do I? Very interesting pair of videos from Rodney on his “Watch it Played” YouTube channel about the collector urge. https://youtu.be/2AtArovBQ2s
JG Ballard’s book “Empire of the Sun” is set in 1941’s invasion of Shanghai by the Japanese.
Japan’s invasion of China on 1937 wasn’t really part of the second world war as they’d been at it for at least 40 years since the boxer revolution; so even calling it the 2nd sino-japanese war is under-stating the lengthy history of an ongoing ‘local’ conflict.
I don’t feel it’s really that simple.
The Question:
Pick up any history book, open any serious history website, ask most historians, and they’ll all tell you the same thing. World War II begins with Germany’s invasion of Poland in 1939. But is it true?
Not necessarily. That said, this is a point I try not to drive home too hard in the community because believe it or not, it brings up a surprising amount of baggage.
The Case:
Japan invades China in 1937 in a big, big way. This is a new offensive, a new war, and not really connected to the invasion of Manchuria or Korea, etc. This opens up a huge front of the war, with never falls below millions of people engaged and very quickly racks up fatalities in seven digits. It hasn’t ended when 1939 rolls around It hasn’t ended when 1941 rolls around Japan attacks the US, the UK, French colonies, Australia, the Dutch, and a host of other nations that “officially” starts World War II in Asia and the Pacific. There are huge battles, campaigns, counterattacks, atrocities that would make Josef Mengele ashamed, experiments with chemical and biological warfare, you name it.
It’s a war.
But is it part of World War II?
Legally, yes. And I use “legally” on purpose.
World War II doesn’t end with Hitler’s death or the fall of the Third Reich. It ends “officially” on the deck of the battleship USS Missouri, where the government of Japan surrenders to government representatives of all the Allied powers. This instrument of surrender is an international treaty, which by definition is international law. And that law isn’t official until everyone signs it … the Americans, the British, the Australians
> Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz for the United States
> Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser for the United Kingdom
> Lieutenant General Kuzma Derevyanko for the Soviet Union
> General Sir Thomas Blamey for Australia
> Colonel Lawrence Moore Cosgrave for Canada
> Général de Corps d’Armée Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque for France
> Lieutenant Admiral C. E. L. Helfrich for the Netherlands
> Air Vice-Marshal Leonard M. Isitt for New Zealand
and yes…
> General Hsu Yung-Chang for China.
China has to sign the document before the war legally ends, which means her participation in the war is by international law recognized as an official sovereign combatant. Ergo, her entry into the war has to be taken into account when determining when the war starts.
World War II is not just about Europe. It didn’t start in Europe. It didn’t end in Europe. It wasn’t about Europe. It was about the world, of which Europe has not been the center for some time.
The Complications:
A surprising number of people get agitated when this is brought up. There are a list of reasons for this.
1) People in Britain sometimes find this uncomfortable because it challenges the idea that they were “in the war the whole time,” and refutes the idea that they were ready to fight against right-wing dictatorships from the very outset.
2) British History as an Institution: The eurocentric idea that emphasizes the contributions of the UK, US, Canada, France … in short, the West … at the expense of the Soviet Union or China (who actually suffered well over 90% of the Allied fatalities of World War II no matter how creative you get with the numbers) was largely established in the late 40s and early 50s as the first wave of Second World War history was written. This was almost exclusively done by British academics, with Winston Churchill himself leading the way. It’s not wrong, just incomplete.
3) People in Poland may feel like they’re losing their status as “first to fight.”
4) Europeans in general realize the war wasn’t “just about them.”
5) People in Japan are confronted with a truly horrific chapter in their nation’s history.
6) In addition to the Soviet Union, people in the West must now accept that the “other great ally” also turned out to be a colossal Communist adversary in the Cold War, leading to nihilistic underpinnings of what World War II was even about or if anyone even “won” the war. “The Greatest Generation” defeated right-wing fascism, national socialism, and militarism only to set up left-wing Stalinism, Maoism, and God-knows what else? Was there really anything so “Great” about that?
7) Bringing in China in 1937 begs the question of Manchuria in 1931. I do not propose moving the date back that far. Manchuria was another conflict that doesn not draw an unbroken line of sight with China 1937 … but it complicates the waters nevertheless.
8) Including 1937 as a start date greatly complicates geopolitics in Asia. Remember that the Soviet Union and Japan fought two major conflicts in Mongolia, 1938 and 39. Once we get the Molotov-Ribbontrop Pact of 1939 (making Hitler’s German and Stalin’s Soviet Union “allies”), does this make Japan an enemy of Germany? Does this make Japan an Allied power? Of course not, it just complicates the hell out of the situation. And when looking at history, people tend to like simplicity, what can easily fit on the back of a miniatures box, in a 90 minute action movie, a video game, or a YouTube video.
9) Who really wants to re-write every history book ever written on World War II?
The Conclusion:
Of course, I’m not trying to propose what’s right or wrong here, or tell virtually everyone in the world that they are “wrong.” I’m just making a case and outlining some reasons many people resist it.
The war against Nazi Germany, one of the worst evils ever faced by Humanity, begins here in Poland on September 1, 1939. Even the British wouldn’t declare war on Germany for two more days. And America never declared war on Germany. German declared war on the US after we declared war on Japan. And of course Poland would continue to fight after the fall of their state, with massive armies in exile fighting in both the East and West, to say nothing of the home army and the Resistance.
Re point 8 [assume we are A]
The eternal paradox of global politics:
“My friend’s friend is my friend” [A^B^C implies A^C]
“My friend’s enemy is my enemy” [A^DxC implies AxC]
…
Dammit!?!
Worst game of “F***, Marry, Kill” ever, eh? 😀
Thanks for that Ben ,Grima Wormtongue shall now for ever onwards will be known as Wet Willy
Flames of war looks easier to get into with the new sets. My son is keen to start an army as he likes the tanks.
Not to rain on the parade but although the Poles as is absolutely undisputed most valiantly resisted and did some outstanding soldiering the sheer numbers were totally against them even if the Soviet Union would not have engaged (17.09.1939, by then it did look dire for Poland already).
The Germans had nearly 3,000 tanks against not even 900 Polish ones but let’s not forget the Luftwaffe, 2,700 modern German planes against just 400 mostly outdated on the Polish side and not least the infantry, 66 divisions against only 39.
16,000 Germans KIAs and 66,000 Poles died defending their homeland.
The outcome was without help always going to be bad for Poland.
Indeed, the question is how much longer would it take for the Germans to achieve victory.
yes, that’s what I was trying to get across, without the hammer blow in the east could they have delayed long enough for the allies to have joined in earlier
I think @suetoniuspaullinus makes a solid case.
After all, the Western Allies DID get involved right away. One of the most forgotten campaigns in World War II is that France outright INVADED Germany almost as soon as the war in Poland started. They didn’t push it very hard, I think they got something like five miles into the Rhineland and gave up. The British also re-started the old WW1 blockade almost immediately.
What kind of chance Poland had? How well matched against the Germans were they really?
TACTICALLY –
Not bad, as @avernos correctly outlines. 😀 Some of their tanks (I stress SOME … i.e., a handful) were almost as good if not better. Their rank and file troops were just as good. They were just as brave as the Germans and YES … at this campaign, JUST AS EXPERIENCED. This is the OPENING of the war and so most German rank-and-file troops were also “noobs” if that’s still a word the kids use today.
German NCOs and company- and field-grade officers might have had a little experience from Spain or even World War I, but so do the Poles from their 1920 war against the Soviets.
German infantry ARE BETTER EQUIPPED, though, with MG34s in almost every squad and 5.0 grenatenwerfer mortars in every company.
Germans also had much better artillery, i.e., indirect fire howitzers like the 10.5cm (always the bedrock of any German Army … sorry, panzers and Stukas). I should note that Poles had 75mm and 100mm FIELD guns, but these are not the same thing, these were direct fire weapons as opposed to indirect fire like German 10.5cm In our three games so far, @yavasa and I have found that German artillery is a CRUCIAL factor.
OPERATIONALLY –
They’re screwed. The placement of East Prussia to the north and the fall of Czechoslovakia to the south puts German forces on three sides, giving the Polish an impossible battlespace to defend. Also, German air supremacy is going to paralyze Polish operational mobility, even if they ever manage to get their army and reserves fully mobilized in the first place (spoilers – they don’t).
Also, Slovakian troops helped in the invasion from the south, in case the Germans needed any MORE help …
STRATEGICALLY –
They’re hella-screwed. Their only allies are the British and French, which actually DO TRY to help a little (Britain and France often get the reputation of abandoning the Poles, which I don’t think is completely fair), but they’re just not in position to help, vis-a-vis time or geography. Can the British really get a BEF style army into Poland in three days? Three weeks? Three months? Not even three years, once Norway goes and the Ribbontrop builds the Balkan Axis in the fall of 1940.
And of course, there’s the Soviets, on 17 September.
OUTCOME –
There’s no way the Poles can last much longer than they did, given any of the starting conditions. However, if you want to pretend the Soviets do NOT enter, and if you want to imagine the Poles surviving into November or even December, maybe the weather would have stalled things for the Germans until spring. By then the Soviets might have “invaded” another way … coming in “on Poland’s side” to take then under Stalin’s “protection.” Like I said, an invasion by another name.
But this honestly isn’t even “alternate history.” Records prove that the Germans WERE NOT going to invade Poland WITHOUT that Soviet Pact. So if the Soviets were never going to come in … the invasion of Poland never happens at all.
Then again, Stalin always could have screwed Hitler over, ever after signing that August treaty. They were hardly the trusting sort.
Panzer! Panzer! Panzer!
It must be strange to be a 20th century wargamer if you are german… as your native army is the bad guy to most of the rest of the world.
I know that fantasy games have evil armies, but they never existed in real world.
It’s not like Germany is the only country in the 20th century to be the ‘bad guys’
We’ve done some pretty bad stuff in Indonesia post WW2 too and then we get to Srebrenica. Altthough that was more the result of politicians giving our troops an impossible task while none of our allies offered support.
could be worse there are a few countries I put above Germany in the evil stakes
The 1920s-40s Soviets or 1930s-1945 Japan … MAYBE … and this is a stretch. 🙂
I certainly wouldn’t put them “above,” but they’re really the only ones in the same league.
The difference I feel is that German culture has largely accepted and acknowledged this past.
Most players of a german force (such as myself usually) are able to separate their gaming faction loyalty from any sense of admiration of Hitler’s National Socialist Party (Nazis).
As a principle I go as far as to refuse to incorporate any SS units in my forces; so I’ll be skipping the upcoming SS FoW book. I prefer to consider my forces to be ordinary Heer containing maybe some Lehr (effectively well trained veterans).
A little bit rose-tinted I know as certain orders to commit atrocities applied top down to the whole Wehrmacht and some were therefore committed by ordinary units. That said there were atrocities on all sides (Brad Pitt overseeing the assasination of prisoners in Fury was a fictional portrayal of events that certainly occurred unpunished).
It’s only a game, and relations of mine that fought in both world wars had no issue with my brothers and I playing such games when younger and only couple of decades after.
I do think that the closer we get to the present with war-games, the harder it is to disconnect.
Happy Weekend!
Thanks for mentioning our little thread out here guys. Really appreciate it.
Would Poles be able to hold out? I don’t know. The whole defensive plan depended on France and UK invading Germany from the West and as we know it diplomacy is bad lady. France informed UK before the war broke out that if the war starts they are not going to honour their pact with Poland and invade Germany.
As for the two fronts part. Well, Germans wanted to invade Russia anyway. Hitler did want “Lebensraum” in the East and a realization of the idea was the Generalplan Ost. So a war against Stalin was unavoidable.
Wonderful work @yavasa!
Great work, @yavasa ! 😀
Splendid work, @oriskany 😉
A German Army, West or East Germany
Actually German was fight a war on three fronts: West: Allies Normandy Invasion, East: Russia, and South: Allies Mediterrain Invasion
I promise I am real an not spam; that Monty Python has a lot to answer for
One point the crew started to touch on and I’d like to see more of a discussion of is…. Game death by expansion.
For prior GW new game releases, gamers have been worried about whether a game will be “supported in the future” – I have too many things to say about that term to go into it now.
It now seems with both Warcry and, more timely, Aeronautica Imperialis (AI), the pendulum may have swung back too far the other way, with too much coming out too soon.
With AI, if one purchases the “Wings of Vengeance” Starter Set, one gets a 36 page rule book. If one wants the campaign rules, then one has to buy the “Rynn’s World Air War Campaign Book” (88 pages) separately. The latter contains a complete set of the rules, so if one buys both, then there is some doubling up.
So this release isn’t like Warcry and Kill Team before it, where the starter set contains the complete book that comes separately available at launch.
The separately available “Rynn’s World Area of Engagement” has a double sided board that is “Measuring approximately 3’x3’, this game board is even bigger than the one found in the Aeronautica Imperialis: Wings of Vengeance boxed game.” The description of the latter does not include how big the board in it is.
Again the separately available board is a different size to the starter set box.
So does GW want a player to give the game a go with a starter set and, if they like it, then expand to fuller rules and bigger board? Certainly the price point for “AI:Wings of Vengeance” is quite a bit lower, $180 in NZ dollars, than the starter sets for either Kill Team ($314) or Warcry ($330).
The “Aeronautica Imperialis Imperial and Ork Ground Assets” ($83) set is also a separate item, if the player wants a fuller play experience.
Then, of course, there are the separately available tokens, cards and dice. The fact the tokens are available to buy is a step up from Kill Team.
Having all that, and the additional miniature kits, seems to be – exhausting (?)
Yup during the conversation I was wondering the same thing – is there too much and could it fracture the fan base.
We will have to see…
I think with AI it’s not so much a ‘game with expansions’, but more a complete game sold in parts in order to keep the illusion of a ‘cheap’ game.
So instead of selling a 150 Euro ‘starter set’ they’re selling a 60 Euro introduction with (not quite optional) expansions.
I wonder if the strategy for this game is this way because they weren’t as sure it would sell.
Adeptus Titanicus had enough of a cult following to warrant that big expensive starter set.
Killteam had enough use as cheap source for 40k armies if that failed.
Warcry is probably a calculated risk as it can be sold as ‘killteam for Age of Sigmar’ … especially with the addition of non chaos factions at launch.
It seems to be the same with most games these days.
A quick search on YT finds only one or two English language unboxings, from August 26, which is quite early for a GW release.
And for me, it is not one of the usual suspects (ie GMG, Tabletop Minions)
It does show that the board included is, in fact, a paper sheet, not what I’d call a board.
So it does seem to quite a basic starter.
No play throughs yet..
Interesting strategies, from a marketing point of view.
The preorders for this game only started today.
I suspect not many have had their pre-release press kits 😉
The ‘map’ in the box does appear to be paper as it listed as “1x Double-sided Area of Engagement battlemat”.
You can see this in the official ‘how to play’ video with Becka :
https://aeronautica-imperialis.com/
I suspect that a cardboard version would have made it more expensive.
And IIRC it’s the same type of ‘battlemat’ that GW uses in all of their entry-level products like the AoS Soulwars starterset.
I see “How to play” and “Play throughs” as different things.
The first runs through and teaches the rules – all the phases of the turns and who the game is won.
The second actually plays the game, which I find gives me a better feeling of whether I will like the game or not.
I suspect there is a review embargo on this game until the official release, which is why you haven’t found anything yet.
However the GW news and their intro videos at least show the content of the game, which is what an unboxing would do anyway.
And it is at least something to give me a first impression.
I definitely would like to see a bit more by outsiders as marketing material tends to ignore the negative features.
I think in GMG’s case, the range got to him too late to have everything painted up, a video recorded and edited to be up for when the embargo lifted – which generally seems to be when the pre-orders start.
(He did put out a “Let’s Play” of Riot Quest, the new PIP game, on Saturday.)
I’m pretty sure that Tabletop Minions got Kill Team a month or two before the embargo lifted, so Uncle Atom and others had heaps of time to get things done.
Are other games producers trying to match the tempo of release that GW has established? Has is everything gotten faster? (Hence my exhaustion.)
Thanks for an interesting discussion about the start of ww2, and it’s fun to hear about the turnup to your FOW events!
Great show. I watch every week.
Happy Weekend to all Beasts / OTTer’s / CoGs and Cultists.
Happy Weekend mate!
It’s getting harder and harder to resist going back to FoW. Might have to dust of (and expand) my german Panzergrenadiers…
Best of luck with the troubles.
Remember : with historical games you can switch rule systems …
I’m pretty sure you can use FoW minis in Battlegroup:Overlord
Great show as always gents! I look forward to it every week .
If I won the German bundle I would try to see if I can use it to encourage more historical gaming into the club I go to… been unlucky so far ? (flipping 40k!)
Thanks for the show guys!
Cheers!
Would love to get the new German book and cards, they will fit nice in my collection of FOW books, have just started toe get my brother to pla FOW ver 4.
Have a nice weekend
come on folks its new content, we cant go wrong with new content it would be nice to win it but if not i will still buy some of it.
I can see an Order 66 moment in 40k when Roboute Guilliman presses the button and all Primaris become loyal to him regardless of Chapter. The Primaris then become just Imperial Marines with a unifying colour scheme. I just wish they had made the founding chapters resistant to Primaris but can see why GW didn’t.
Gotta love them D-Day nasties
Ok, so a bit of background on Imperium Secundus for @dignity & @warzan :
So Robute Guilleman’s big “thing” during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy was Theoretical vs Practical. In the aftermath of the Word Bearers decimation of the Ultramarines at Calth (and their destruction of the planets surface via the irradiation the systems star) the massive blood sacrifice allowed Horus’s forces to summon the most violent and disruptive warpstorms the galaxy had seen since the end of Old Night and the beginning of The Emperors Reunification, the Ruinstorm. Beyond just disrupting previously safe routes of travel, the Ruinstorm had the secondary function of completley blocking the light of the Astronomicon, thus making any long-distance warp travel nigh-impossible, whilst short jumps became incredibly risky. It also increased the risks of Astropathic communications, the only viable option that the Imperium possessed for faster than light communications.
Now given that The Astronomicon was generated by The Emperor himself, and how unreliable communications had become, Guilleman looked at the practical application of the storms that had isolated Ultramar, the devastating attack on his Legion by Horus’s forces, and made the Theoretical conclusion that Terra must have fallen and Horus have slain their father. Imperium Secundus therefore was his attempt at creating a last redoubt for humanity, built around his realm of Ultramar and extending as far as he could stretch his sons. He invited in scattered elements of his brothers Legions – members of the Shattered Legions (Raven Guard, Iron Hands & Salamanders) who had survived the Drop Site Massacre at Istavaan, sons of his loyal brothers who had been left isolated from their home Legions (Alexis Pollux – The Crimson Fist – and his Imperial Fists, several White Scars) and even bands of warriors from Legions that had turned Traitor, but had stayed loyal to The Emperor and The Imperium (most notably Warsmith Barabas Dantioch and his Iron Warriors), as well as any forces of the Imperial Navy, Army, and the Mechanicum.
Notably the Primarch of the Ultramarines did not openly declare Imperium Secundus until he was able to convene a quorum of his brothers, in this case Sanguinius of the Blood Angels and Lion’el Johnson of the Dark Angels, and he took Johnsons accusations that he was empire building seriously. To avoid allegations he was taking advantage of The Heresy’s confusion to carve out a larger realm for himself, it was proposed that Sanguinius would serve as Emperor-Regent of the Imperium Secundus, whilst Lion’El Johnson would serve as Lord Protector.
Over the course of the Imperium Secundus arc of the Horus Heresy books (primarily the books The Unremembered Empire, Pharos, Angels of Caliban & Ruinstorm) it is eventually revealed that The Emperor lives and Horus has not yet reached Terra, news that devastates Guilleman as he feels he has, regardless of his noble intentions, betrayed The Emperor by declaring Imperium Secundus. As he, The Angel and The Lion ready their Legions & fleets to strike for Terra to reinforce their father, the last act of The Avenging Son of Ultramar is to have all record of Imperium Secundus struck from the records.
It’s worth considering though that, of all the Primarchs, Guilleman was built for empire-building thanks to his genius for the minutiae of governance. In the face of all evidence pointing to his father being dead and the Imperium torn asunder, Imperium Secundus becomes not just a logical response, but the most Practical one. And indeed, many of his actions post-resurrection suggest that Guilleman spent considerable time prior to his injury and incarceration in stasis planning to prevent the events of The Heresy happening again, and that things like The Codex Astartes and the breaking of Legions into Chapters were only ever intended as short-term measures to hold the line whilst more permanent solutions were prepared…..
@warzan, @dignity The thing with the Horus Heresy books is that with some of the books you need to read others first or you are missing information and you get spoilers for other books.
The Imperium Secundus that @dawfydd mentions starts in the book The Unremembered Empire but some things that happen in this book are a result or have events that come from other books. You need to read the Vulkan lives book (I think, somebody will correct me if I am wrong) first as it has some very important things that happen that comes back in The Unremembered Empire.
Thanks @caledor2 – I KNEW there was a book in this sequence I’d forgotten and Vulkan Lives was the one!
And yeah, the HH series chronology can get a bit messy at times, and some of the reading orders don’t match the actual release of the books, especially in the middle period between Istvaan and the final march on Sol.
Lots of releases from GW to see. The Aeronautica scaling is likely future proofing to keep the doors open for a combined game but the amount of investment to produce the epic game again is likely not going to happen. I doubt GW will ever release another all races army size game again, they are more likely to just keep releasing smaller more manageable products or add races as it is far more safer from a business perspective.
Morning Ooters so looking forward to getting D-Day Germans. It’s taking too long 🙁 but glad it’s coming out soon.
Ah no, if you block the spammers how we gonna get quality pruducts, dets with seexy wumin, millions of roubles, euros, pounds or stuff…..
And if I can’t refinance the mortgage on that house I don’t own, how else is my secret Nigerian prince going to pay for my p**** enlargement? 😛
we have to spam them to stop them stopping the spammers?!
I don’t have to worry about Spam and viruses ever since a nice lady called Pinky from Mumbai who is a Microsoft expert in computer security guaranteed she could keep by computer virus free for only £200 a week
LMAO James. Well played lol
I’ll be here all week. Try the chicken. 😀
Another Glorious show in the corps!
More Tiggers ,books and card , what more could you ask, and a possible tin of spam.
love the show
Good morning everyone is it me or is the sync on the audio slightly out, maybe just me as one of the first times running on a big tv.
I need to get back into my Flames of War from the hobby weekend, sadly the 40K weekend kind of took over… to many projects!
Really looking forward to the FoW new German book and cards….they seem like they have lots of flexibility in the units, and plus added cards, will keep German players very happy
I really hope to win the FOW goodies, it’s a hobby I always wanted to start on. But good luck to everyone!
Dreadfleet was an absolute travesty in my eyes.I’m all for a ” proper ” Man O’ War to be re-released.Those Drowned Earth buildings would fit nicely into the Fallout universe as well.
More Germans is always a good thing.
Happy Saturday!
More FoW…. oh go on then! 🙂
@dignity – G’man starts Imperium Secundus as they believe Terra has fallen already, it’s a long story arc of books in the HH series
Looking forward to the new FOW book and new minis. I can see another project being started.
Quick aside @warzan I’m a big fan of the new email format. Much more clear, easy to read and looks cleaner. Top marks.
I’ve been looking at FoW for a while now as we have a burgeoning local scene. Be great to get me started. Plus I’m eager to try contrast paints on smaller scale.
Thanks very much @woldenspoons 🙂 Weve been working hard on that.
Every day try to do a little bit more to improve things 🙂
@woldenspoons check out @bobcockayne‘s Slow Grow League Project, he has used Contrast on some of his infantry. More inspiration to get you started as well!
Great show. Loving the thought of Rohan buildings for my LotR minis. I so hope there is a slightly wider set of options than the Laketown set.
FOW is not a game that I’ve played but I don’t have any other WWII stuff and I’m impressed by its longevity. Germans have to be the place to start though right?
Brilliant show as ever. Have a great weekend guys!
Thanks for the show. Wishing a great hobby weekend to all.
Not only did the Soviets fuck the Poles in the rear in ’39, the British and US shafted them after the war and didn’t even try and use lube…
The Polish involvement after 1939 is really interesting, especially in the RAF. I may be very wrong but it took the Poles to finally take Monte Cassino in Italy… As a side note, recently watched A Bridge Too Far and loved Gene Hackman’s character – does anyone do a not-figure based on him?
That would be a cool mini! I really enjoy Gene’s take on the a Polish Commander, (can’t remember his rank).
Stoessi’s Heroes does:
https://stoessisheroes.com/product-category/all-heroes/
Brigadier-General Stanislaw Sosabowski. At least that was his rank at the time of Market-Garden / Arnhem.
I’m here to fight the anti-spam!
Test, Test this is a weekender test. Do i win?
was that a WWF Test reference, which i make all the time and no one knows why I’m singing?
If not you still should win 😉
I have been eying 15mm ww2 for a while and just got the new d-day box that I am working on assembling. Def looking forward to building out my german and american forces, which is what I would do if I won this. OTT is def on of the contributing factors to getting into it from the beginning!
We welcome our new Bonecast overlord,
can they play Flames of War too?
From the Hit the Beach starter, the D-Day releases and the current support for Hobby leagues at FLGSs, Battlefront are doing a lot right to win new/returning FOW players.
That is a great prize.
Already jealous of the one that’s going to win it.
I have to get that German D-Day book. I think it will be more fun to put together a more historical army in stead of the more generic lists in Fortress Europe.
“As someone who always wanted a sisters of battle army, but never had the chance to do so. but now that they are in plastic …….” Sorry they have lost their feminists. They are transgender Guard.
My husband has been wanting to get back into FoW. Great giveaway!
2 points AND another upcoming Infinity campaign, you say?… very.. very interesting…
I really did appreciate the discussion of the ‘start’ of WW2 as that was all very new info to me and quite interesting to hear about and think about the ramifications of how things could have gone very differently… although there is quite a lot of “what if’s” about WW2 which I guess do help with gaming possibilities. Keep up the great chat.
In a slightly different vein… I’m kind of surprised you are taking the Golden Buttons and such to backstage. That seems like something that front stage only folks would be interested in and does this mean you’ll be limiting Golden Buttons to only Backstage members?
And finally.. one last thought about youtube… I get your issues with them, but perhaps referring to back-stagers as ‘cultists’ is not going to help your popularity with youtube’s bots… or is that the idea? lol
I want to put the catapult legs onto a Deathguard Plagueburst crawler and have it running around on lots of little legs, like the Nurgle Snail mount
@warzan Poland had about 1 million men under arms but only about 2/3rds of the army was mobilized. Germany had 1.5 million just for the invasion. That didn’t count other forces theoretically available.
Poland was hopelessly outclassed in the air and badly outnumbered from the start. Having the Soviets come in was largely irrelevant. What might have happened would have been to delay the invasion of France.
Nonetheless, the Polish army fought hard against overwhelming odds. If you want to watch a really good YouTube series, check out World War 2 Week by Week. They’re covering the entire war in one week increments.
@dignity Imperium Secundus was Guillimans attempt to preserve the Imperium. At the time warp storms cut off Terra and as far as they knew, the Emperor was dead. Guilliman organized it but Lyon el Johnson opposed him. Guilliman nominated Sanguinius as the regent to rule in the Emperors name. Since he didn’t want the job, both Guilliman and Lyon agreed.
The Lyon was loyal. So was Guilliman. And Sanguinius. But each approached problems from a different viewpoint and that’s why they were in conflict.
“Poland was hopelessly outclassed in the air and badly outnumbered from the start. Having the Soviets come in was largely irrelevant. What might have happened would have been to delay the invasion of France.
Nonetheless, the Polish army fought hard against overwhelming odds.”
^^^ This guy gets it, right here. 😀
With everyone there building FoW armies anyway, and you having players in the store too, have you considered replaying through the whole of WWII over a year or two and seeing how it turns out? If each of you heads a nation with a few players under you, and Orskeny runs the world map (as he’s good at that stuff and is trapped overseas) you could have a lot of fun and have regular interesting update videos.
I would love to do something like that
Me too. The problem would be that I’d never hold a group of people together long enough to get though any campaign that lasts longer than a weekend.
I’m impressed with Plastic Alchemy for taking up the charge for home 3d printed games, I hope they aren’t too “early”
With the release of the FoW’s D-day Germans, I have additional ammo (pun intended) to convince my FLGS to get involved in the Slow Grow league.
Also I am looking forward to reading Oriskany’s forum on Poland 1939.
For the benefit of Warren, this isn’t spam.
It may look like spam and taste like spam, but I assure you it isn’t spam.
Thanks very much for the segment on Poland 1939, guys! @avernos is on the money and @warzan asks great questions! (what would it have taken, and what would have been the result). Super appreciate the acknowledgement of this key moment in history.
always glad to shine a light on things like that, I’ve been enjoying the forum thread and games myself so hopefully others will pop by.
Thanks again, @avernos – So far we’ve done in Panzer Leader:
Battle of Borowa Góra
Battle of Tomaszów Lubelski
Battle of Jordanów
Two German victories, one Polish victory.
Although operationally and strategically the campaign is a foregone conclusion, tactically you can find good battles where the odds really are stacked and the Polish really did win some engagements. The Germans didn’t lose 16000+ dead and I don’t even know how many wounded, tanks, vehicles, etc … for no reason.
You guys can use Justins yellow blanket!
Im getting my brother into FoW!
great show. see you tomorrow for cult of games.
It’s Saturday! That means hitting the BoW/OTT website for a few hours, a trip out to get the ‘papers and a coffee, and a nice relaxing way to start the weekend. It’s almost become habit.
Oh yeah, the canal boat didn’t come off. So we got a campervan. Look out Beasties, just as soon as I can work out the ferry website to get a price from Holyhead to Dublin, we’ll be knocking on your door…
Awesome
There is also Liverpool to Belfast 🙂
We take that route quite a lot, the other may be cheaper though!
You have to pay extra to avoid Larne and North Wales!
Oy!
My family live just outside Denbigh, so pretty much on the way to Holyhead. It’s quite a trek from Brighton, so I’ll probably go that way – even if it’s just to get a homemade dinner on the way through (I’m sure everyone agrees that nobody beats their own mum’s cooking!)
Just got into this, but have had to wait weeks for my Hit the Beach starter from Battle front.
Need to start building and painting asap.
FoW continues to tempt. Any have any luck 3d printing 15mm scale vehicles to supplement the existing catalog?
In “Imperium Secundas” Bobby G thinks everything is lost. Due to the warp storms. He talks Sanguinias to become the new EMPEROR. Great book.
Infinity just gets better and better! Have a great weekender.
A friend of mine has just bought The flames of war ‘Hit the beach’ box, so now I have a good reason to sit down and enjoy painting some FOW tanks of my own. As a.typical British player, D-day is.my favourite WW2 setting, so the new late war sets are very tempting.
The spammers are a pain, but I guess that’s just part of the price we pay for having free access to the information on.the internet.
What best to do with a German D Day kit? Give it to a German. ME!
I would build it, play with it… and paint the Panthers all in PINK! Just like in my project 😉
Pink Panthers!
You’d have to play the theme music every time they entered the map and would there be a buff or a debuff for someone randomly attacking them from out of nowhere? ??
Only when playing against Japanese forces with someone called Cato 😉
I’m hoping AI get some future love as I have ordered the starter set from the store. Love to see some more factions coming out.
When you said about it being scaled to Adeptus Titanicus I had visions of a table for AT with a Perspex sheet a couple of feet above it with a hex grid on for the planes to wiz around and take pot shots at the titans as well as each other.
Looking forward to the details of the Infinity Campaign.
Enjoyed the weekender as usual and think historical war games will be interesting over the next few years.
I so want to get i to grow I just need to find some local players with schedules that would allow it.
The 3d printed board game is cool but there are a few on thingiverse already ie: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3239261
Not trying to take away from plastic alchemy as their game does sound interesting and I look forward to seeing some play throughs and the Kickstarter.
I think the Germans wanted the wheat and the oil as they only had the coal oil to be self sufficient by controlling all the land to the Urals.
@warzan may I suggest that when you say “we need more cultists” … may add “WE NEED MORE COGS”. That aligns more with dinging the dong. More COGS for the Dong! XD
We really need more OTTers
OTTers for the win, join us on the Couch!
OTTer COGs are the best
Glad to see Flames of War is going gang busters.
On the Infinity front, I hope that you guys do a play through of Infinity Defiance which I believe will be a big hit!
the plastic alchemy game figures are great.
great show folks.
Another great weekender that took me two days to watch. Those new AOS miniatures are fantasy Necrons for sure, the other day I looked at them and thought that they have a few new units for the Necrons before I realized that they are new Tomb Kings.
No surprise with the primarification of another old guard. I am not surprised as reading about Warhammer legends and that you will be able to play with older stuff (like imperial space marines) which has got me thinking. Is this a way to try and stop any backlash they may get when space marines are nerfed and it’s only primaris marines left. Keep up the good work lads, 🙂
I agree with Warzan, I don’t trust the bots these corporate entities create and unleash on all of us.
Dont think i can post , lets try again .
This sort of thing makes me wish I had a 3dprinter..but then again..where the heck would I put it.
Nice show guys
Really enjoyed the sit around talking history. Very interesting. Especially when Lloyd compares the Soviet Union to YouTube!
Love to paint me some Germans.
Good show! Thanks for the efforts boys!
I was going to buy Aeronautica… but not so sure now.
Paper battlement is very off-putting so it would cost £20 to get the folding card board… which is designed for use with the campaign book (£17)… as are the ground support minis (£20)… which takes the price to £100 including core set (all this based on BoW prices).
And that’s not even considering the extra card decks at £12 a shot and boxes of extra planes at £20 a box (for 2 to 6 planes).
Fow slow grow league is a really good idea. Still not sure about different scale. Have never tried infinity what is it like?
Dear Warren,
How about a SPAM sandwich? ?
I’m pretty sure the original penitent engine came with both male and female pilots
Once again, a great show.
Part of me hopes I am lucky enough to win the German starter force. I do already have the Hit the Beach box and a German starter force box, but you never can have too many WW2 Germans. 🙂
Just to pick a needlessly pedantic fight over trivia, the hair over one eye doesn’t mean the Raven Guard big cheese is chaos, just THE IMPERIUM IS EVIL! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!
In the beginning the Marines and their ilk were always the bad guys of the game. Rick Priestley always said them being portrayed as the gòod guys was always meant to be ironic
It was a much better setting in those days. Grim, dark but at least it was funny.
It doesn’t even seem grim or dark anymore either
they substituted Skulls for grim and dark
GW is really busy lately. Sure, Christmas is coming up in a few months. But all these releases can keep gamers busy the whole year round. Now what would I have to ask for my birthday?
I am liking a lot of what GW is putting out. My only complaint is the codex creep is back, you know, the shit they said they wouldn’t do to us.
Another good show guys, especially like the Kickstarter reviews each time
Love the info on FoW! Keep up the good work.
I will help in the battle against the spam 🙂 No fez though, sorry
Since this year also marks the 75th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising, I would use the German starter bundle to create the SS garrison in Warsaw. I would also take two Panthers, a Hetzer, and a couple halftracks, and put them in a Polish Home Army list as captured vehicles. Some German infantry stands can also be used as Home Army soldiers, since some wore captured German uniforms, but wore white and red armbands and painted Polish flags on helmets to avoid friendly fire incidents.
That was a good interview. He was very polished with a good idea.
Yes, I agree there Necrons in the age of Sigmar now.
nooooooo
happy weekender, awesome show and great news about FOW, can’t wait to see what’s coming out. i’ve been admiring this game for years but never got chance to get into, still hoping one day i can afford it.
Nice, i have an old ss army that i can use as grenadier
That last kickstarter feels bitter sweet. And now we acknowledge that huge boxes of minis is simply too ambitious for most of us and that we should settle for more standees. Kickstarter, you have beaten us.
Quite like the Ossiarch Bonereapers be nice to have other races skeletons though ie orcs,skaven etc
Flames Of War …Love The New Books. I try to pick out one army and make it. For the d day book…I was not sure but seeing the cards …division leclerc just to throw some variety In the mix. For the Germans….I am thinking brummbars…..
Another great episode, thanks, guys. The slow grow league is awesome and the german army is massive. The art on cryptic explorer is amazing.
Started with the Weekender, hyped for Infinity. And hope to win some stuff. 😀
the old Penitent Engine could have either a male or female prisoner strapped to it
German D-Day starter set and all the cards, is it Christmas in September? Have been involved in Flames of war for years and I love the 4th edition rules. Be great to see the new late war Germans and get my hands on some of the new plastic kits.
Have to agree on the Warcry expansion. I’ve been debating picking something up for it for a thematic break from Kill Team but thought I would wait what with Aeronautic Imperialis coming out and having some D&D stuff planned for. Barely seems like they have hit the shevles (sepecially with the staggered release they had for the original warbands) and there’s already an expansion ramping in the entry?
Sad to say this is more likely to fall by the way for at this pace.
Do we know if the German book covers both east and western fronts or just d-day area
D-Day German lists specifically.
Intending on putting in a bit of work on my Flames of War army today.
Would love to win the starter set. Great show as always.
Happy monday!
Well, the spam check had me running in circles for a few minutes: wrong clock setting (maybe because i’m not in the UK? it was also wrong and i never fixed it…), wrong password! and so on… finaly quit and went back to OTT and voilà! It appears i was logged in! Posted a post on a news item to check and then here… strange!
I’m not a super fan of the new Undead faction in AoS, was almost wishing that it made me join AoS! But, if i do go for this game, it will be with Stormcast Eternals wich are only getting more beautiful as new units come out.
The new Sisters look awesome but, i think you’ll need to many models like Imperial Guards and i’m not down with this style of armies anymore…
See you on my catching up with XLBS!
Thanks for the show guys. I started painting my Soviets in preparation for the upcoming FoW campaign. Reminded me how slow I am at painting… The points are lower than the other starters so I’ll need to add more troops sooner. Not sure if it should be Valentines or some infantry. Decisions, decisions.
@warzan don’t worry mate – I find all 5 of you cute
lol
Great show! Really looking forward to the German release for FoW. There’s a lot of great plastic coming out that has my name on it!
Also like the Plastic Alchemy approach – it opens up some really interesting business models – monthly subscription downloadable games anyone??
Slow gro leagues seem to be a really brilliant idea. I like battle companies for the LOTR game from GW for that feeling that you can jump into a game, and learn to play and progress without needing the high model count investment too.
? Need to focus more. Less games not more. Less sprue, less plastic, less money spent. Must comply.
? Oh 15mm World War 2? It will hardly take up any time, paint, money or space at all. Surely Flames of War is just an extention of the Tanks Skimish game I already have? What harm could a little slow grow action do? ?
im not a bot!!! i do lerk in the background and post when i get chance!!
Not too shabby lads…Two Hit the Beach sets bought from your store. Can’t wait!
Oooooh that’s a lot of Germans!
I Have to grow the habit of commenting here too… I always drop a comment on YouTube but commenting here too makes a lot of sense.
I really liked the whole idea behind Plastic Alchemy Kickstarter, especially because you will be getting a base system that can be used to many other games, I still don’t have a 3D printer, but I’ll be sure to look to get one as I think that these KS will be growing in the next years.
I like the idea of the slow grow league, a good way of getting people involved in the league without it taking over the rest of their hobby.
I would love to win a german army for FOW
Excited about the new FoW stuff. More models are good, right? Besides, I always finish building stuff I have before I buy more……………..
@Jerry ! Damn! I want ratskins back too!
Aeronotica Imperialis made me poor, precommand already done ^^ And in PLASTIC! Not too sure about the Hex…. but I own the first set rules so I don’t care 😀 different scale? I shall see… I am a bit surprised to see a supplement being out straight at game lunch to be honnest.
@justin Double Eagle is the best darn book that was written, but then… Dan Abnett
So I want to support Beasts of War, by spending my money on Minis. How well do you ship to the USA currently/near future?
Also found some great videos about Space Marines being awesome. If you have time give them a watch, its about 5 minutes total run time.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDNCCj46C34AgW7314tDcizn8qFcoENLO
Anyway thanks for the great video as always.
The deal with Imperium Secundus
Roboute’s “excuse” was that he believed that the war had been lost, the emperor was dead and the imperium was finished. So he started Imperium Secundus to “preserve his fathers dream”. But once he found out the emporer was still alive, he headed stright to Terra
Give me those germans and let’s rewrite World War 2. Lol.
just starting with flames of war so the prizes would be very welcome