Weekender XLBS: Fixing Your eBay Armies & Rules Changes – How Often Should They Happen?
May 1, 2016 by dignity
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![Warcradle Studios Reveal TINY New 10mm Festive Marker! [Updated]](https://images.beastsofwar.com/2025/11/christmas-kyle-main-600-338.jpg)
My first post…after being here for years. Hello everybody!
Hello right back at ya!! 🙂
Don’t leave it so long next time 🙂
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday everyone :D.
Happy Sunday!!
Anyone else imagine Warren saying “It was only supposed to be a quick pint” in Michael Caines voice?
Also – comments in an iFrame!
comments in an iFrame!
comments in an iFrame!
comments in an iFrame!
comments in an iFrame!
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday
Morning, happy sunday
I tend to buy things more on eBay than anything else, mainly because you really can get decent bargains, but yup you sure can get some stinkers if you’re not super careful.
Also there are tons of re-cast minis on there, that’s a real minefield and as a result I tend to ignore unless I’m 100% the item is Kosher – I’ve seem so many instances when things which are obviously re-cast have made close to full retail – scary.
I suspect the last batch of minis I “won” were recasts. They were close to retail, too. Mind you if they are recasts, they’re good ones.
Minefield is exactly the word!
I know what you mean. I bought a tank about 6 months ago that looked absolutely fine, then when I stripped it down it was clearly a re-cast and had been filled all over the place, it was a real mess. Still after some work painted up ok.
One thing I have noticed is anyone selling undercoated only forge world resin is probably selling re-casts. I know we all sometimes give up on a project once in a while, but there is a ridiculous proliferation of unpainted but undercoated spendy resin on the bay!
This is the best stuff I have ever used for stripping metal/resin or polyurethane figures
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00B4WK17K/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00BBX8TRQ&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=NNEK3NXEZ70SHACCVQ4H
thumbs up for that cheers looks ace.
Looks good – providing you wouldn’t ended up with floppy models by leaving them in too long? (got to be careful what you recommend to Justin 😉 )
@coxjul so true lol
I been playing a fair bit of 9th age including a tournament or two, are they have just released the 1st full edition
http://www.beastsofwar.com/the-ninth-age/9th-age-rules-download/
Getting the rule to a stable place is a good thing – changes in a living rule book can be a pain while setting up at least
Thanks for the link, didn’t realise is was based on warhammer fantasy
My point was mainly that there shouldn’t be a set amount of time a ruleset should wait before updating. It WM/H needs to update after six years and AoS after one year, then that’s what they need. There shouldn’t be a minimum or maximum time. That said, if you’re constantly updating your rules every few months then that’s not a good thing for the game, though at the root of that is you keep not getting the rules right which is bad for your game anyway. Likewise, if your business is centered on selling a game then churning editions keeps the game selling and renews interest in it, even if the rules don’t necessarily need an update, and that can drive the need for a new edition.
Speaking of streamlining and games and the new Darklands rulebook, has anyone read the new book? I’m usually very good as skim reading a rulebook and having the core engine of the game down very quickly. That is not the case with Darklands.
Any rulebook that need to have links to videos printed in it … might be a little out there, I have played a few games with the “simple” quickstartrules, and even those are not light weight or quick. It seem to go back to the days of complex rules.
It certainly seems a complex set of rules, but its compounded by the way the rules are written. The more complicated the rules are, the more they benefit from clear and simple presentation, but these go waaay the other way.
Yes, even the quick rules we did need to make some flow charts to figure out
Not been a back stager for long but loving the XLBS, great start to Sunday morning. Keep up the great work.
My first ever painted figures were the Warhammer Skeleton Army box:-
It was helpful to have a limited palette and it even allowed me to try using a wash.
As for Justin’s Orc Warlord how about “Buztin Juz Tin”?
I always expect I’m going to need to probably completely repaint any army. I tend to get suspicious of anything that says “professionally undercoated”.
Well, thats not about the Frostgrave, you can see IHMN, Both Rampants. There is whole market only about the good rules. Models you already have at home, or its an excuse to purchase a new ones
Whether your Sunday is just kicking off or wrapping up hope you all have a great weeks gaming ahead. Happy Sunday all!
Ben makes an excellent point. Both PP and Mantic are being upfront about a new version due. People – by and large – know it’s coming and can delay their purchases.
Contrast with GW. I’m not an AoS player but launching without points struck me as naive. Fixing that is a great move, but they’ve not handled it well. This massive change came on the back of releasing new books. If I’d just forked out on books-minus-points, then heard “points now LOL” from GW, I’d be somewhat miffed.
Balancing rules perfectly is impossible, but that doesn’t mean you should give up and leave all the balance to gamers. That’s like saying “I can’t make a souffle, so just eat raw eggs and cheese”. you might not manage a souffle, but at least try for an omelette.
Happy Sunday! Somehow I knew that ‘that’ story was in some way going to end up as Warren’s Ultimate Willy Watch…..
Had to be didn’t it 😉 lol
Good show, jolly good show!!
The update crunch is what made me fall out of love with Warhammer/40K. Currently I mostly play Infinity. Even though I lose a lot of games I like the intricacy of the rules and the potential that any model you put on the table could make that amazing, game-winning kill.
At first I was a bit dismayed when N3 was announced. But after CB explained and showed more about the updates they won me over. Now I actually can’t believe I managed to play the 2nd edition. (It did require a veteran walking me through a demo game, mind you.)
However I wouldn’t accept an N4 update anytime soon. After the current rewrite of Human Sphere I would like and expect them to do the promised advancement of the story.
Any kind of update should be made in service of the game. If a game is well-written not many updates (if any) are required except maybe to expand into new territory.
And start happy/jammy dance 🙂
Didn’t get to Salute this years, so this is a great treat – just don’t let looyd take the G&G brushes (do i need to fill in a request form for the win ?)
Oh, and Happy Sunday
Yes – you always need to fill the form in.
Top right corner, contact Beasts of War – claim a prize.
Maybe one day I’ll get to try that link…
Congratulations!
Thanks for that
Problem is now that it keeps asking me to ‘check th i am not a robot’ box, and ther is not on to check – so i can not sent the entry/prize claim
Someone Help !
good to see dark lands getting some live on the show, even if it was just for 3 minutes
Happy Sunday… afternoon!! (don’t ask – been a busy morning)
My technique for getting glow effects (would work for those tattoo scars on the dragon etc.) is to paint up the model as normal but finish by painting these areas (best if recessed) white (make sure this gets very dry) before using a load of the GW/Citadel glazes – literally a blob or a puddle – and leave to dry.. These then leave a very fluorescent layer of pigment behind. Get smart and you can play with letting puddles of two colours blend where they meet. I often use this on my my Infinity and Malifaux models where there’s a light, or some oozy fluid I need to pop!
A couple of pics with some models I’ve done this with – the blending on the ‘winged’ models especially:
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For ‘Portfolio’ gamers like myself that play a few systems, there’s just a certain capacity in terms of both brain storage & recall, but also the time to populate it by poring over rulebooks. One complex rulebook that occupy’s 80% of my reading but only 30% of my play time – won’t get played and the speedbump there tends to be constant referral to the rulebook during the game.
The need to update also depends on how modular the rules system itself is and (this is important) how the company sells this feature. Just look at GW’s “Death from the Skies” expansion. It feels greedy and unwanted because of how they’re selling it as a ‘must have’ feature.
And then there’s the expectation of players to see rules from expansions brought into the core rules, because the new version shouldn’t miss any features of the old one.
Why the heck are we getting an expansion book for flying machines in a game that’s long past v1 ?
One factor that wasn’t included in the discussion is the need for companies to be visible in the market.
If the last version of the core rules are more than a few years old then you might get people wondering if the system is alive at all.
And as for campaign systems : that isn’t really new, is it ?
Chances are if you’ve got an army then you’re buying new stuff once to fix any problems you’re having with yours.
All a campaign system really does is streamline this process and provide you with an in-game reason.
One thing campaign systems could be really good at is to reduce the barrier to entry as your starting force won’t need to be big and it will direct your upgrade efforts towards something that works.
As far as MTG fluff goes… there are tons of novels for fluff.
BTW The weekender, and XLBS just flat out make my weekends. Thanks for ALL of the great content.
oops, forgot to add… I believe Warzone Resurrection has a new edition coming as well. I don’t believe it’s a rewrite, but rather an update, but i’m not sure. I gave up on W:R a long time ago.
As someone that’s been playing strategy/tactics games for well over 15 years now, I personally find the newer streamlined games to be a lot less exciting or interesting. My buddies and I “figured out” Frostgrave really quickly and haven’t revisited it since, sadly.
Magic the Gathering from Wizard’s have always a strong book line. Well for the most part.
As for edition changes, I feel that companies should be more willing to have new print runs of rule books be updated with FAQs and Erratas. Let say ever year or two maybe. For no matter how long an edition lasts they go though many print runs of books but they just don’t, for some reason, fix want is known to be broken.
This way lessening the big reason for major changes of rule books for all the changes can happen slowly. But everyone should know what is changing and when. Like a PDF doc so they can tape them over the old sections that don’t work. Or have hole punched/ Spiral bound versions to can have pages added or removed.
Something (printing books with just the FAQ and erratas) I have to say Hawkwargames been exelent at with the 1.1 books
+1 for Orky McOrkface 😉
Happy Sunday
Fun times. The way GW handled rules updates – as a marketing strategy rather than as something to improve the game – certainly was a big element in putting me off and driving me to their competitors.
40K did actually have a whole system reset in 3rd edition when every army got a list in the core rule book. They were all ‘get you by’ armies until codexes were released however. I stopped playing when 3rd ed came out (for a number of reasons) and got back into it for 4.5 I think it was. But eventually gave up. The ‘Death from the Skies expansion from a previous version of the rules felt like a particular rip off.
The game I’m playing most these days is Dropzone Commander and I’m very happy with the approach they take with rules updates*. They periodically revise rules and points values, which feeds into their (free) army builder and all new units and updated rules are available for free on their website (though the core rules are not free and I believe that once rules for models become official and are published in a book they are taken off the website).
*I think the game has become less balanced since it’s launch. Which was probably inevitable, but I’m also not a massive fan of many of the conceptual choices they made with the Resistance – the first new faction to be introduced to the game.
Another Great XLBS.
I am looking forward to the new Bolt Action rule set and the German army book update.
I would be worried if all the systems I played changed every year, but thankfully this doesn’t happen. Companies have learned from the market leader’s mistakes of the past (Change fatigue and Codex schedule issues etc.)
Introducing expansions, campaigns and using stat cards over new army books has allowed players to warm to the successful companies of today. Mutual care and respect for the rules we love and still innovating the progress we expect has made for an excellent environment to hobby in.
I have been a seller of painted soldiers, but not whole armies on ebay. I have thankfully always had positive feedback, but sensibly people aren’t shy to ask questions if the photos don’t meet all their needs.
I have only bought painted soldiers once as part of a larger unpainted set and would like to take them back to the metal, but my white spirit hasn’t touched them. I may need to find a way to touch and improve rather than start again sadly.
Justin’s Orc warlord names:
Axmaz BearGutter
Mudluk the Gross
Sinbad Badsinner
Stephanie
@brennon I don’t have AoS or 40K armies. I love the art work, loved Space Crusade and Hero Quest, I like their paints and especially their shades / inks. The only event I have been to is Salute. In your experience would I find enough to see and enjoy to make a trip to Warhammer Fest worthwhile?
@warzan I hope the big day goes well. I got given wedding day advice which I think went well. It’s your day, delegate the wedding well-wishes comment book to someone you trust and just mingle with your wife at your leisure. The people that seek you out at the reception will be the ones that mean the most to you and you’ll remember the moments they shared on the day very fondly. Trying to seek out a moment with everyone as way of a thank you for coming can distract you from enjoying the moment. Have a great day and congratulations.
Having watched the play through of Labyrinth, it’s a massive vote for stephanie from me, although Gorbad Mammothflayer has a ring to it 😀 .
@warzan. Enjoy the day, it will pass by in a haze of excitement (install GPS tracking on the kids as well 😀 ) and be over before you know it.
As far as rule sets go, GW ( up until 6th into 7th when it went a bit sideways ) were releasing a new BRB every 5 to 6 years. I agree with @admiralandy ( and John ) about the historical side of things, as there is certainly more and more choice to fit your army into a new games rules, with a bit of a jiggle 😀 .
I was an advocate for simply playing the rules set that you liked the most, much as @dignity was saying, but i saw the same thing happen that @admiralandy mentions, so i now consign them to the shelves at a charity shop and move to the next edition or bin that game and start another from my shiny syndrome list.
Thanks Guys!
As John remarked is it a feature that games with more original IP need changing more than historical. Also D&D is on its 5th edition and that came out 40ish years ago. So how much is a drive to push sales with GW its fair to say that is definitely the case at least for the last 10 years.
With historical even if you didn’t like the changes to a ruleset you could more or less take your Historical army of any type and slot it almost seamlessly into another system.
Although yes you can still play which ever edition of a game you like if it constantly changes every few years your current player pool will get smaller and smaller.
A big thank you to John for introducing me to Professor Elemental and Chap-Hop. 🙂
great show guys.
Happy Sunday, well Monday actually =)
As good as a company giving a long notice on a change of editions is in theory as a business its not really that good. Once you announce the change you not only lose the sales on the rulebooks which honestly by that time are probably pretty low anyway but you lose sales on everything else too. Lots of people when they hear about a new edition they tend to not buy anything till they know how those units will come out on the other side of the change. Just ask PP how the change from their 1st to 2nd edition went, there was like a 4 month lead time and their sales dropped extremely low in that time while people waited for the change. Thats why they made this change so much quicker than before.
I think giving people a discount on the new books if they bought the rules within a certain period before launch is the best way or just offer the core rules for download for free because lets be honest the money is in the miniatures not the rulebooks.
Happy monday! thanks again to working this weekend, great show guys
@dignity PLEASE please move the mouse pointer off of Bens face in the future(see around 1:06:00), You had me really really really concerned that I had a dead pixel on my screen for a minute!! 😛
You guys hit the nail on the head when you said the future of games is in the campaign. You can see that yourselves from the success of your Infinity campaign.
I myself don’t have the time to play a complex game but I do have a couple of hours to get a game in once in a while. If that game can be part of a larger campaign, then I’m going to be much more inclined to play it and stick with that game system.