Weekender: Mantic Historical Gaming & We Want Tabletop Robot Wars!
July 23, 2016 by lloyd
Welcome to The Weekender. We're going to be delving into some news from the week and beyond and talking about Mantic dipping their toe into Historical Wargaming...
Check Out Team Yankee Leopard Week
Make sure that you check out the Team Yankee week as we even have some games of Top Trumps where we argue over the best units in the game.
Hobby Lab Scatter Terrain Challenge
We're taking a look at a few of the different Project Logs in the Hobby & Painting Forum for our Scatter Terrain Challenge.
- Gaist - Desolation Of Urethane Lane
- Sirchristopher2 - Bottle Cap Barrels
- Eilif - Modular Urban Terrain (Base Ten Blocks Link)
Keep at it folks and we'll cover more of your work as the challenge progresses throughout August too.
News Time
Let's see what's been in the news...
- Age of Sigmar Start Collecting Forces - Get yourself started with some of the new factions in Age of Sigmar.
- Seven New Malifaux Crews - Seven new crews match up with the new Masters for Malifaux.
- Robot Wars Back On Sunday - A look ahead to the return of Robot Wars on Sunday in the UK!
- 4Ground's Gen Con Releases - What are 4Ground taking to Gen Con?
Will you be watching Robot Wars?
Mantic Stepping Into Historical Wargaming?
As well as their being an existing fan project aimed at bringing Historical Wargaming to the Kings of War rules system we've been hearing whispers from the ether of a new set of rules being worked on by the Rules Committee and Mantic themselves.
We start some speculation as to how this might work and delve into some of the details we do know about at the moment.
What this does mean is that Lloyd MIGHT finally dip his toe into the realm of the Historical.
If you have Pics of Romans for Lloyd you can post them in this forum topic - click here.
Kickstarter Time
What's worth backing right now?
- Mauser Earth: Skirmish Game - Wonderlands Project bring 50mm War to Paris.
- Near & Far Storytelling Board Game - Fancy a narrative adventure and a wander through mysterious lands?
Catch The Weekender XLBS tomorrow with a Free Backstage Trial
...and don't forget to take part in the Great Wargaming Survey 2016!
Have a great weekend.
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Happy Saturday!
Happy Sunday
Wait too early……
Morning folks…Mantic straying into historical sounds interesting though it’s already a flooded market place. So they’ll have to do something completely different to what’s already out there.
I think the ‘sandbox’ style design (if it indeed does go that way) could be the big thing that brings people to it as a way to play Historical games with little hassle.
BoW Ben
Happy Weekend!
It’s the weekend!! Must get some hobby in…
I spy someone who wob’t want to play with my fixed “Rise of the Kage” set given that I’ve sorted tge floppy spear problem by replacing them with the very sharp NorthStar metal spears!
As I commented on the Malifaux crew post, the new crews (including the Gencon special edition) are available to order through their online store until the end of Gencon.
http://www.wyrd-games.net/news/2016/7/20/gencon-newsletter
Ryan Laukat designs awesome board games… Near and Far is just the latest. He has his own visual style and there are cross-overs with Above and Below.
@lloyd I’d leave historical modelling – too many spears and spiky bits…lol
At one point Manticore said they were going to make rules for historical armies, with Romans sited as the example. Could this set be that?
I’ve being using Romans as Dwarfs in KoW and the feel is great, very interested to see the new rules.
Morning… @lloyd ancient rules deal with different eras fighting each other so its nothing new 🙂 DBA and Field of Glory etc..
@lloyd, Warlord’s historical games (Hail Caesar, Pike & Shotte, Black Powder) are actually very simple. Not complex at all. Check them out. A very easy in to historical wargaming.
Good call @harpoon71 – plus they’re also very modular, in the way that it sounds Kings of War Historicals is going to be. You have your basic rules / units and add special rules to give armies or units period / faction flavour.
Can’t wait to see Mantic take a historical event, change a few things, then act like it’s a totally new thing. Follow that up with a crappy Kickstarter and tons of complaints about quality and changing the package after pledge close and SHAZAM! A proud new division of Mantic is born.
A proper explanation of the structure and functionality of Roman armies would be a series comparable to @oriskany‘s Barbarossa articles.You are looking at over 1000 years of evolution and enforced changes. So here is a very short version
Early Rome – ruled by kings and was organised along lines similar to the other Italian states. Wargear and ways of fighting not too far off what the Greeks were using. The term legion then meant the entire army.
Then they got rid of the kings and became the Roman Republic. Around the 4th century BC they became more organised and featured a range of troop types:
Equites (cavalry)
Velites (light infantry)
Heavy infantry – 3 flavours: hastati, principes and triarii.
You can read more about them here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_legion#Roman_Republic_.28509.E2.80.93107_BC.29
The Roman legions were reformed by Marius into the classic units we see in Gladiator, Centurion and The Eagle. The same article referenced above has a summary but you can find out a lot more by online research.
Auxilia were a feature of Roman armies for a long time – most of their archers and cavalry were auxiliaries and many garrison units were too. As the Empire expanded, Rome and Italia alone could not provide the numbers of troops required to guard long frontiers.
Having civil wars and rebellions plus picking fights with tough cookies like the Parthians and the Sarmatians meant they needed lots of replacement troops. We won’t mention Varus…
Legionaries after the Marian reforms were trained as heavy infantry and sappers/field engineers so they could build marching camps, circumvallations and so forth.
The regal period is literally prehistoric and we know nothing reliable about its army at the time. Mention of hoplite-style warfare is much later and not from an especially reliable source. It might be true, but it could just as easily be anachronistic, especially given that it’s not certain if the Greeks were fighting in a phalanx before the middle of the sixth century. A friend of mine has just completed his thesis on Archaic tyrants and is of the opinion the phalanx is as late as the early fifth century.
Beasts of War entering a team into Robot Wars? That seems like a fantastic idea! Love to see the videos for that. Kudos if you do a behind the scenes documentary about ‘What The Team Got Up To In The Hotel Room’
I think we’d either end up with a machine too deadly for the show or one sooooo crap it would end up being battered far too early haha.
Always going to be a great weekender when @lloyd gets his Willy out to show it off!
Warlord Romans are nice and chunky, should be just what you are looking for.
Great show lads, I will bring some warlord, foundry and Aventine romans up tomorrow to show the size differences. One of us Lloyd. One of us. One of us
Romans? *Yawn* 🙂
lol… so true
Cool, see yeah then!
Romans actually DID fight Egyptians, jut not the kind of Egyptians you’re probably thinking of. I assume you’re talking about the Old Kingdom Egyptians, bronze weapons with the curved Kopeck swords. They are over a thousand years out of sync with Rome. The Romans however DID fight and conquer an Egyptian kingdom, largely through a rather complicated bit of political nonsense involving succession. But the point I was trying to make is that that kingdom was the Egyptian Ptolemaic kingdom which fought the Romans, which where more in line with Macedonia in terms of military and fighting style.
As for Spartans, while there weren’t really any mention of Spartans fighting Romans, the Spartan fighting style of the Hoplite Phalanx was still the popular way of fighting in Greece for a long time, up to and including the era of the Romans, so you did have those Phalanxes fighting the Romans. And while Sparta was shadow of its former self by the time the Romans showed up, they where still around so it isn’t that hard to see Spartans having fought Romans.
Xanthippos was a mercenary Spartan general fighting for the Carthaginiansin the first Punic war with some success, I would imagine he would have brought his own cadre of experts with him if not a few units of Spartan mercenaries.
Didn’t know that, Xanthippos you say?
But I imagine it didn’t go that well for the Spartans given how one sided in favor of Rome the fighting on land was in the first Punic War.
He was a good tactician who reorganised the Carthaginian army and routed a Roman army at the battle of Tunis and captured the Roman Consul. He tried to persuade the Carthaginians not to confront the Romans head on over open ground but to use broken ground where the light infantry and elephants would have the advantage. I’d not heard of him myself until I started to delve into the structure of the Carthaginian army and their diverse mercenary units.
Get ye to Polybius Book One! The ‘mercenary’ aspect of the Carthaginian army is overplayed. It’s largely the result of Roman propaganda, (the Carthaginians are weak and need to pay people to fight for them). Much of what is called ‘mercenary’ when in the Carthaginian army is called ‘auxiliary’ in the Roman army.
The Old Kingdom ended over two thousand years before the Roman Empire. The New Kingdom is the more famous Egyptian army. Kopesh were used throughout.
I’m currently doing a Roman army from the Republican period using Victrix figures which compare in size to Gripping Beast ‘Saga’ figures.(can’t upload a pic from my iPhone). So are the larger end of 28mm figs. I chose this period as the Romans had some pretty stiff opposition against the Carthaginians, Phyrrus of Epirus and the successor states. So you can match your Romans against Hoplites, Pikes and Elephants together with some of the vicious Celt and Spanish tribes. With a bit of tweaking you could go from early Republican period up to the beginning of the Marian period reforms.
Why is posting pics so awkward…
@lloyd
I have PMd you a pic (hopefully!)
WG EIR are only 28mm and significantly smaller than GW/GB.
If you want EIR wait for Victrix (plastic) or go metal and check out Aventine Miniatures. IMHO the best EIRs around!
http://www.aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/53_74
Cheers
Andy
Pretty sure there was a robot wars board game…
Always wanted to put a mate in a bin on roller skates with a walky talky and say we had a voice controlled bot. That said always objected to the name robot wars, but I guess rc diy tool and mobility scooter motor collisions doesn’t have the same ring to it… That and not allowing competitors to have flame throwers or electrical discharge weapons.
Will the ultimate robot wars question be answered, what was georges gender????????
GAH!!! Talk about the old roman fighting styles!!! Must also be part.
In the days of the Early Republic, the Roman army’s first sight as a “Recognizably Roman” army, ie. Gladius short sword, big shield and Javelin. The Roman army was actually a levy, any Roman who owned land could, and would, be called to war in the Legion, which at that time was pretty much their name for an army. These people would be divided into about five groups depending on a mix of wealth, age and experience, and the levy had to pay for their own gear.
The Velites where the poorest and youngest, they where Javelin Skirmishers mostly with pretty much no armour, maybe a shield, sword and some Javelins or Slings, they where the forward Skirmish line, for harassment and such.
Next you had the Hastati, who where the first Heavy infantry, these guys had the Big shield, a Gladius and some Javelins, they weren’t as armoured as the later Legionairy’s, usually having a helmet, some greaves and a small square chest piece.
Next where the Principes, these where the closest to the proper Legionaries before the Marius Reforms (get to that later), same as Hastati in gear, except they usually had better armour, most often some form of Chainmail. They and the Hastatii where the main bulk of the Early Republic forces.
The Oldest folk tended to be the Triarii, they where even better armoured than the Principes, With the Same Big Shield except they where usually armed with just one big Spear of the stabbing variety, not Javelins and Gladius.
The Richest roman Levy’s where usually the Cavalry, the early Romans didn’t have much light Cavalry and even the cavalry they had was pretty much just there to support the Infantry and cover the flanks.
This army would be made into three “lines” for battle, the first Line being the Hastatii, the next line being the Principes, and the Final line being the Triarii, with a forward screen of Velites and the Cavalry on the Flanks. Tactics wise they where a meatgrinder, first the Hastatii would charge in, tire the enemy, then they’d fall back and be replaced with the Principes, who would either beat or further tire the opponents, and then they’d be replaced by the Triarii, ensuring the best troops hit last. These line where made up of Cohorts which where blocks of Men and these cohorts where arranged in a Checkerboard style, the idea was that the Cohorts would support one another, the Cohorts at the front being pulled back and replaced with the Cohorts behind. It was a bit more complicated than that but that was the general gist of it.
The Marius reforms are what resulted in the proper legionary we most usually think of when we think Rome, which is part of why they where also known as Marius’s Mules (the other being the large number of actual Mules the new Legions employed to carry gear). The Marius Reforms created a standing army of permanent soldiers as opposed to the old levy, which also meant that the state paid for the soldiers gear. It also made it so that any Roman citizen could join the army, not just those that owned land. These Legionaries would serve for twenty years and at the end of those years of service (assuming they lived that long) they would be given some land by the state, which was also part of how Romans culture spread so rapidly into conquered lands.
Most of these Legionaries where infantry men with the shield, javelin and gladius, there where cavalry Legionaries and supporting staff as well (Engineers and “munitions” people mostly). These Legions where about four to six thousand men strong, and divided into cohorts like the Early republic armies, except these cohorts where more permanent divisions as well as battlefield placements, and their greater discipline made them much better at that whole supporting part of their job.
These Legionaries did a lot more that the old levy, they where drilled for marching, battlefield formations (Testudo and Wedge being the most famous), they carried most of their own gear including shovels, picks and axes for when the Legion made camp. Roman camps when the legion was on campaign or just out of friendly territory where all pretty much small wooden forts from that point on, every camp involving about an hour or two of building a wooden Palisades, digging trenches and small towers to defend the camp, which would then be taken down again every morning.
The Auxiliary was any one in the Roman army who wasn’t a citizen of Rome, they where most often people from very different cultures and performed tasks the normal Legionaries could not, skirmishers, light infantry and cavalry, and archers, that stuff. Their reward for service of twenty years was that they and their families became Roman citizens.
That’s pretty much the Roman Legions of the late Republic/Early empire period, late Empire Legions where a whole another affair that I won’t go too much into detail off, but the general gist of them was more but smaller legions, different gear and a lot more Auxilliery.
Anyway that’s the Romans from the Early republic to Early Empire period, well the general overview of it, I’m sure I got some parts wrong but that should cover most of what you wanted to know.
We’re really not sure how the legions and auxiliaries operated in relation to each. Much is made of very little in the classic depiction. Much is also made of the Marian Reforms, when it’s likely that the property requirement was all but gone by 107 anyway. Roman soldiers were also always paid a stipend prior to Marius, and it doesn’t appear as if this was increased until Caesar. Payments for the legionaries’ arms were taken from this stipend, and that didn’t change under Marius either.
Marius’ innovation seems to have been to offer land to settle on at the end of their sixteen years of service, making the army into a career option of landless citizens instead of just a citizen obligation, along with year-round military service.
Couple of things, the name Marius’ Mules actually comes from the equipment of impedimenta, this was a cross braced wooden carrier on which a Roman legionary would carry several days worth of rations, all of their tools and equipment for conflict. They actually drastically reduced the baggage train even though each contiburnium (unit of 8 men) had a mule.
The auxilia after 25 years of service were given Roman citizenship as were their children, but you also still had citizens entering auxillia units but as far as I know there is no definite reason for this. Auxillia also were likely not light infantry, if you compare them to celts at the time in the standard auxillia unit every man is equipped as well as a Celtic noble. In fact at the battle of mons graupius the army of the Caledonian confederacy was defeated without the legions becoming involved.
Continuing with their equipment if an auxillia is armed with a clipeous shield, mail shirt (lorica hamata), spear and gladius and a legionary (in a lot of cases) only has exchanged the clipeous shield for a scutum shield and the spear for two pilla (lorica segmentata was not issued to all legionaries) the main difference between the two units is their training and use. Although an auxillia cohort is as bad as fighting a whole unit of houscarls.
“Although an auxillia cohort is as bad as fighting a whole unit of houscarls.”
Can you expand on this?
I can do;
The Auxilia trained or were in combat for 25 years, drilled on a regular basis and were a regular army. If we consider those 25 years would most likely be at the peak of the persons life and combat effectiveness this would lead some one in the early medieval period to be between 16 and 41 which would be at the close going on to be the end of his life as a persons 50s would be the most likely time of death if they managed to make it to their 30s.
They were equipped in an equivalent way with high quality mail coats, a short sword for close engagement, spear for the initial engagement and clipeuos shield that can be used easily for shield walls. Although the use of items like the Dane Axe could be argued to be used as something that would be effective against shield walls.
According to Goldsworthy there is no evidence that Auxillia units fought only in loose order and it can be surmised from their equipment (Gladius not Spatha) that they would likely be engaged in tight engagements (a shorter sword is much better than a longer sword only when in a press or urban environment). As the Romans had no shortage of Spatha style swords but preferred the Gladius for infantry you can surmise this is because of the style of combat common to the unit rather than because of a shortage of materials.
With the combination of training, equipment and discipline it is likely they would be as effective as the military elite of the later (early medieval) non-professional European armies.
Ha! I had misread ‘bad as’ as ‘bad at’ and thought you were saying auxiliaries weren’t an effective fighting force lol.
Lol, fair enough.
I used bottle caps as the turret for many of my ork thing’s.
I wonder if the X Wing rules would make a good template for a Robot Wars game, with control of the house robots determined by a dice roll, or controlled by a third player.
LET THE WARS BEGIN!!!!
Also change the rules for movement, so that unlike in X Wing, where you had to stop and move back until the bases were touching, you now push the robot in front of you as well and continue moving.
The house robots had hard-and-fast rules, so they could be controlled with fairly simple AI.So when a robot enters – or is pushed into – a corner patrol zone, they’d be attacked. I’m sure there were other rules, but it’s been ages since I’ve seen the show 🙂
that was pretty much it mate, only attack what entered the cpz? combat patrol zone I think. And when a robot was shown to be imobilized they would send some out to finish them off and set them on fire.
The guy who wrote TO THE STRONGEST is having a sale on bigredbat until Monday 25th it’s another historical ruleset hardcover £19.99
You can use historical miniatures for any ruleset I should get back to sculpting my 28mm Hebrews…
I have been looking at these for a while now
didnt rome have a few bust ups in egypt?
Against Greek-influenced armies and nomadic auxiliaries.
Carry On Cleo 🙂
So, Lloyd, what does your Better Half say about you painting your Willy?
As long as it’s in the hobby room it’s fine 🙂
what happens in the hobby room, stays in the hobby room
Is that because of the dribbles?
Happy Saturday!
The one robot I can remember from Robot Wars (mainly because it was my favourite in the early series that I watched) was Razer, which wasn’t a flipper.
From what I remember regarding Centurions, for Imperial Romans they commanded 60-80 men alongside an Optio, who acted as their second in command. 6 Centuries made a Cohort under the command of the senior Centurion, and 10 cohorts of infantry formed the core of a Legion under the command of a Legate served by 6 Tribunes. Add auxiliary cohorts and officers and the number for a legion comes out to be around 5400 or so men.
First Scrapheap challenge and now Robot wars …. you want it all
I made a forum topic for anyone wanting to post pics of Romans and have also added a link to the video description above.
Post Pics Here: http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/painting/forum/topic/weekender-roman-mini-comparison-pics/#post-167539
SO I woke up this morning looking forward to the Weekender XLBS somehow thinking that I had left Saturday somewhere in the past. Can you imagine my surprise that it was the Weekender and that F1 was just starting qualifying?
As to the discussion on the Mantic Historical range @lloyd the great thing about the Bronze Age et al is that you can fight your Spartans v. Romans or even Stone Age fighters v whomever. That is the great thing about your own mind you can fight any what if you want.
Cheers guys and can’t wait to see what Sunday brings.
anyone interested in playing a robot wars tabletop game should give these a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCXOzG-GBRw
…That is a Merc BUCCANEER @destiny, And the Dog Warrios are just like the Dog Boys used by the CS Military forces in RIFTS By Palladium and i do remember Maximillian @lloyd 😀
Great show up til Loyd started romancing his Willie 🙂
On a more serious note glad to here about Mantic testing the waters on historical gaming.
As to Roman minis I personally like the Warlord plastic and metal as well Victrix. I find that they mix rather well. Gripping Beast has some late empire Romans coming out soon as well. Any of these models will work fine for anyone who is used to the “heroic scale”. Their are many other companies as well. As a general rule if they are advertising for Saga they are close enough to mix in. The biggest pit fall with Roman figures he novice should be aware of are three broad ages(or time Periods). These are important as the type of armor worn changes and weapons carried. Tactics changed as well but others have already covered that. This is important as it has a bearing on your figure selection. The early Republic the shields were oval, more spears as well as javlins, helmets had feathers(plumes), square breast plate and a single greave. Civil wars and Early Empire segmented armor(lorica segimentata)with the long rectangular curved shield and some mail(lorica hamata). The traditional legion period. The Spanish sword(gladius)and the pilum(javlin) became the primary weapons. The late Empire mail became more common as well as other armors for those that could afford them such as scale ans cataphracti. Longer swords also became more common. The use of Auxiliary troops was a common practice through out Roman history but much more so in the later parts. This is just a very general over view(and long winded:) )
Thanks @tibour – that was a very short, but very helpful summary for those of us who don’t know much Roman history!
I’ve seen all sorts of different kinds of Roman miniatures, but to have it spelled out how it works from a miniatures perspective was really handy.
What @angelicdespot said 🙂
that was entertaining guys 🙂
really fun packed show you two made me laugh to tears excellent as always 🙂
@lloyd @dignity Buddying up on Kickstarters is awesome. Me and my brother have done so several times now and it really makes a difference. We backed Dungeon Saga between us and rather than have a copy of Dungeon Saga each, we got one copy and ALL the expansions and several upgrades. I can’t recommend going halves on a kickstarter pledge highly enough – provided you trust the other person of course.
interesting show guys the bottle top barrels look good. has anyone made bunkers from the guard tops from drinks bottles and may work for 6/10mm battles?
Quite honestly, the 54mm games are interesting but troublesome because there isn’t anything that crosses over terrain wise.
Remember the entire mess with Inquisitor and the issues with the scale the minis for it caused?
I know what you mean @sotf but it could potentially stir the hobbyist within and get them working on some terrain for the game from scratch.
Of course not everyone is going to do that but there’s a potential for people making their own tailored battlefields.
I think the KoW system is a great set of rules and I love the idea of them doing Historicals too. Actually my King of Men army is actually a Yorkist War of the Roses army using the plastic and metal miniatures from the Perrys, lovely figures
@panzerkaput Oh that sounds cool, do you have any links?
I loved Battlebots when i was younger. As well as mostly wedges, the other super common design was robots that simply spun in a circle with a heavy weight at the end. The tough part of the show was that it was a tournament and some bots got damaged and lost their functionality over time. Great fun though. Need to show my son the show now!
@lloyd WarlordGames plastic Romans are very small, and probably not what you’re looking for!
Check out Aventine Miniatures for a fantasic range of Romans (and other historical miniatures).
http://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/
Fantastic show guys!
@lloyd when I started wargaming back in the 2000s. Lots were playing De Bellis Multitudinis (DBM) and the game covers from 3000 BC to 1500 AD. so not bad for a single system covering 4500 odd years and being tournament oriented.
The ages were split in 4 books. And usually the armies were only fighting within the books bondaries for tournament purpos. For fun or smaller tournament anyone could fight anyone.
So here are the slices of time according to them:
Book 1 : 3000 BC to 500 BC (bang there goes 2500 years of history)
Book 2 : 500 BC to 476 AD
Book 3 : 477 AD to 1070 AD (just realised I don’t own that book… will have to fix it real soon)
Book 4 : 1071 AD to 1500 AD
DBM? I can feel the nervous twitch coming back!
I would definitely watch a “Beasts of War: Butchering History” series.
It’s could be like Horrible Histories – we’d just need someone to sketch us some awesome comic drawings 😀
Happy Weekend 🙂 New AoS starter box look good. I am tempted by the Sigmarines one 🙂
“I was taking out my Willy at least 3 times on the show” @lloyd 😉
I reckon I’m going to pick up the Stormcast one to bolster my force at the moment aye – it’s a good box and with on-foot hero if I don’t fancy using the Dracoth one.
It’s long, I mean really long, but worth a listen.
http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/
Romans, bears,
Friends, Romans, countrymen! Lend me your bears!
Malifaux figures can be ‘challenging’ to put together sometimes. 🙂
The best insights I’ve had on assembling them is: Wash the sprues thoroughly, use clippers rather than a knife to cut out the parts, and use plastic cement rather than superglue.
I did a step-by-step tutorial video on assembling a Wyrd miniature for Spectre Studios, which can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDhn3cze0oM if you’d like more details.
Heavens to Betsy, team Yankee me!
50mm is to rich for my wallet. I can’t support that scale, but I do love the robots. I have some from robots from Bombshell minis, and these remind me a bit of that aesthetic, but I don’t have figure cases big enough, terrain big enough, or money enough to get more than one or two figures. Looks great, though.
Hot Wire Foam Factory’s Foam Coat works good for protecting foam and it gives it a nice texture.
I get I and H beams from this plastic fluted board they use here in the US to make outdoor signs. It takes a little care when cutting but you can get a ton from a single board if you take your time. After a election is a good time to get some for free.
Great show as always. I’d love to see more historical stuff on BoW so come on chaps, stop talking about it and just do it.
@lloyd there is no need to be concerned about ancients rules as many have excellent general introductions but if Manticisation is your way in then just go for it.