Weekender: 40K KillTeam Commanders; Marvel Or Mistake?
October 13, 2018 by brennon
Welcome to another episode of The Weekender where we're going to be trying to employ the powers of the Kill Team Cat to answer a question about a new expansion from Games Workshop.
Podcast Download
Make sure to get involved in the comments as we're going to be giving away two copies of the Kill Team Commanders Expansion this week too!
Marvel Or Mistake?
As we were discussing the new expansion for Games Workshop's successful Kill Team game we thought that maybe these Commanders are taking away from what made this skirmish version of Warhammer 40,000 what it is.
Do you think that this is true or do you think that the Commanders Expansion allows us to develop new stories and narratives within the universe, offering us a chance to get stuck into the development of more characters.
Remember, include Marvel or Mistake in your answers in the comments below and we'll get all scientific about it next week.
News
We also have some great news from this week to discuss...
- 500 Store Celebration - Two new miniatures appear from Games Workshop next weekend
- Middle-earth Awesomeness - Watch out for more from Tolkien's world in the coming months
- Star Wars Specialists - Some new generic options are coming out for Legion commanders
- Cruel Seas - We get a better look at what you're getting with Warlord's newest game
- Building Rome - Z-Man are bringing together plenty of interesting mechanics in a new board game
What caught your eye from this week?
The Edge Campaign
Justin talks with Pawel from Awaken Realms about their campaign that started this week. The Edge is a fantastic game with plenty of interesting options for those who love narrative tabletop experiences.
Make sure to check out the first episode HERE and let us know what you think.
Kickstarter
We have two great campaigns for you to check out.
- D6 - A fantastic role-playing/adventure board game which needs your attention!
- Beowulf: Beastslayer - Will you be considering this new game book from some luminaries of the craft?
Make sure to let us know if you've seen anything else we should consider on Kickstarter.
Community Spotlight
We're looking at some amazing terrain building, kitbashing and painting this week from the Community Spotlight and if you'd like to share your thoughts you can do so HERE.
Also, remember to check out the Hagglethorn Hollow Kickstarter which still has two weeks or so left on the funding platform.
Prizes - Win Kill Team Commander Expansions
This week we're going to be giving away two Kill Team Commander expansion sets from Games Workshop which you can snag by commenting on this episode.
We also have two winners to announce from last week who won Warhound Titans and Half Moon Bay Steins.
Prize Centre - See If You're A Winner
We have a new Prize Centre which will list all of the winners from our myriad of competitions so make sure to check out if you've got your hands on something on the link above.
Have a great weekend!
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Yay, the comment box is back. 🙂
Comment Box is misbehaving badly today lol
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I’m going with Marvel. It doesn’t take away from the base game, but does allow players to slowly build their armies to full on 40K.
@brennon – GW do have a Path to Glory product available for AoS as either a 88-page softback (20 of your UK pounds) or as an ePub for 9.99.
These were brought out under first edition of AoS. Since I don’t play the game, I don’t know what effect second edition will have on the rules therein.
I do actually have it on my shelf haha but it wasn’t quite the same game as the original unfortunately.
Ben. My wife had me cracking up this morning. She said you look like General Zod and his buddies in “the fantom zone” when they are looking out. lol… Oi! ???
I think I would say Marvel. More options.
Its a Marvel! The oppertunities for narrative play with heroic characters at the skirmish/scuffle level are enormous. I can imagine a squad of guardsmen taking on a Genestealer Patriarc or a squad of Wyches on an assassination mission targeting a Necron Overlord. Or why not imagine a squad of Space Marines evacuating a Librarian onto a waiting flyer as a horde of Poxwalkers and a few Plauge Marines are closing in threating to overrun their position. Or why not proxy an Astra Militarum Commander as an Imperial Knight Pilot that has to cross the board to reach his Knight with a Genestealer Cult trying to stop him.
I mostly think of Commanders as an oppertunity to game with a mighty hero against a determined force of opponents, not so much as a Meta-changing rules addition for competative play. For me its an oppertunity to Marvel over the heroic actions of a single character in cinematic action. If any of the Commanders turn out to be overpowered, then I’ll adjust the scenario or forces and run it again. With Killteam its feasable to do that in an evening.
Mistake – due to execution
* The price for the single rulebook is ridiculous (to field *ONE* model).
* The Commanders are not new sculpts, so the only way to buy the faction specific Commander is to buy a box with a model we likely already have.
* They’re super-over-powered relative to the rest of the troops.
* Instead of now meeting up to play KT, you’ll need to agree whether to play with/without Commanders.
* It’s taking a leaf from video games, release a product that’s incomplete and sell expansions that should’ve been in the main game to begin with.
It’s not an auto-buy for me, given the cost of the rulebook and having to buy a box with a model I already have.
For KT expansions, I’d much rather campaign based expansions, that are optional and expand the KT corner of the 40k universe.
The way they’ve executed, makes me wonder if there will be an expansion for fliers, for bikes, for heavy armour, etc.
Re the new prize place. You have used ( in my opinion) the wrong spelling of centre.
Yeah I took literally minutes stressing over that word wondering “mmmmm I wonder which will annoy @torros” 😉
I’m old and senile enough now that everything annoys me?
Clearly some of us hold you to better standards than you hold yourselves. Just imagine what a mess you’d be without us!
This is similar to the email sent to me this week about the movement at work of some ‘stationary items’; which I responded seemed a contradiction. The original sender still hasn’t worked it out…
lol
You’re obviously not British, maybe American?
‘Centre’ is correct for British-English (in my opinion).
Torros spelt it ‘centre’ to refer to it, but OTT spelt it ‘center’ in their ‘Claim a Prize’ part of the website.
Ah, thanks for clarifying. I jumped up to the top of the page and thought they were referring to that. Cheers
I’ll just drop this here sorry Torros I really like you but I think they’ve used the correct spelling.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/centre
Thanks @totsuzenheni for your clarification. I retract my bewilderment at @torros response ( because he usually is right) and feel much more happy with the state of the universe.
Even with the law of averages it had to happen eventually
Marvel. Nice to have a team go assasinate some higher ups.
Still gw needs to learn that expansions like this should not be that expensive
8th!
I don’t play KT, but I would say both – from my gw days people like characters and if gw didn’t get there, people will make their own character rules, and they don’t like ideas that deviate from the stc
Deviation from STC templates is heresy, please report to your nearest tech priest for servitude reasignment.
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It’s the Weekend!! Time again for a Weekender.
Mistake – feels like a commercially exploitative release and messes with what Killteam in its various previous releases has always been about. Danger it becomes a necessary pay-to-win purchase.
While I like the idea of developing individuals in a team over an extended campaign… isn’t that what Necromunda has always been about?
I like the idea that Cruel Seas . I shall maybe have to go and by a new Duffle coat and a cup for my cocoa
I’m slightly on the Mistake side of the fence. I like playing grunts. But I’m with Sam too, bribed by the new options. I want Harlequin commanders. I want a commissar. I’m just not sure what it’ll do to the game. I’ll probably pick it up to find out for myself.
Marvel… never played 40k (i know.. shame on me), but now its a possibility for me to get into the game.. 40k feels sooo big for newby’s, thats why I never get involved
You aren’t missing anything. Stay away!
pretty much my thoughts as well.
Standard 40k armies feel too big.
This is a nice byte sized entry level.
Depending on the faction you’ve got 5-10 models to build & paint.
And there’s less to worry about in terms of list building.
Factions like the Harlequins are even easier : one box, all the models … and you’re done.
The faction itself may be a bit more tricky to play, but that’s it.
So you will be Beasts of Peace from now on :p
lol yup gonna have to be it seems 🙂
Or Beasts of the Continuation of Politics by Other Means
Apologies to Clausewitz
I’m sure On Tabletop defeats all those nasty bots
I was thinking 1984 it too.
Better to get all the rebranding done in one go, so to be on the safe side make it ‘Bunnies of Peace’…
Marvel because it adds interesting individual commanders which is what any small scale miniatures game needs. Reminds me of the original concept for Rogue Trader way back in the day.
Happy weekend! Marvel as an idea in regards to offering more options, both narrative and gameplay wise. That said, I will await reviews of the actual product before potentially buying it.
I don’t think it’s as extreme a move to be either a marvel or a mistake. But I’m nearer to marvel.
For me a marvel would be if for each faction you got a bits-box-on-a-sprue – so a highly modular kit with a wide variety of options to create a unique commander, but way more accessible than having to kit bash from other kits.
Accessibility is key. People who play Kill Team over Necromunda say that the Necromunda campaign is way more complex and is a huge multi-week time sink. Kill Team is more pick up n play and you can play a campaign in a day. And I think that’s Kill Team’s place in the range. Therefore the buy a box and get going approach is much more marvel than mistake in my opinion. As a gateway to 40k it’s ideally positioned for me.
I’m not sure about Cruel Seas. Torpedo boats were made to attack bigger ships (cruisers and battleships and up) by zooming in very quickly and then launching torpedo salvos at close range. Actually, the Destroyer (short for Torpedo Boat Destroyer) was specifically made to combat this threat.
To me it seems out of place to have torpedo boats fighting between themselves. Their main armament is the torpedo, which would be useless against other torpedo boats.
There are larger boats coming from what I remember the largest being 12″ which is around 4 times the size of the torpedo boats
We used to play ‘Action Stations’ years ago, it was a coastal warfare game using MTBs fighting in the English Channel. Some good scenarios involved attack/defend games with merchant ships or a fishing fleet as the objective or rescue/capture downed aircrews or crippled sub. The MTB has plenty of secondary weapons to engage other MTBs with (quick firers, autocannons, MGs, etc), used to make for some good games.
Maybe using Motor Gun Boats (MGB)instead of MTBs is more appropriate?
Was that the old Skytrex one that was out years ago (with a range in metal MTBs). Had some fun with some pilot rescues using that one (if I’ve got the right set of rules). I do seem to remember it was very hard to take down those S Boats in the game however
We were developing a set based on the old Hammerin Iron rules which was a set for ACW ironclads. The main part was that it was played on hexes
@phaidknott, yes mate, the 1/600 stuff that they had quite a large range of.
Yes the S boats could be hard, I always liked the Fairmile D MGB to take them on with.
I would say marvel, whilst I like the original squad idea having a commander this way allows you to expand if you want. Plus it’s a cunning way of building an army slowly 🙂
Good episode as always but Ben please please stop pronouncing Lieutenant like an American!
Here’s a couple of vlogs on this topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-5iI1pThN4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8O6zyc9_4
I’m leaning toward marvel for the commander expansion for Kill Team.
Had to double take when you were showing off the new prize centre, great way to see I’d won a boot camp bundle! Thank you to you guys and Warlord :).
As someone just starting kill team (having never played 40k) this fills like something I now have to buy to keep up in getting started. I guess story wise in my head kill team battles are pockets of a larger 40k battle going on somewhere with just a handful of models so adding this special unit might not make it feel like that given he/she is the Hero rather than just one of the team stepping up into that heroic moment.
As a collector, they look cool and I will probably pick them up. I don’t think it is needed but if the plan is to take you from Kill Team to 40K over time then I do understand.
Can I say a Marvel or a Mistake not sure I can so I will say it is a Marvel from a business point of view because we all know these will sell like hotcakes.
#Mistake
I say this in that I feel that this is moving away from what I like about Kill Team in that we are creating a personal narrative for our miniatures. I agree with the comments that would like to see a regular grunt rise in rank to the a position of leadership; be it awarded for acts of valor or even just wartime promotion. I have just finished reading “Brotherhood of the Snake” by Abnett which follows a collection of stories about Space Marines from the Iron Snakes chapter. In the first story, it involves a single marine who is not even named. Mild spoilers for this ten year old book in that we learn the name of this mere brother and follow his path which has him taking command of a squad to later interacting with the major players of his chapter. I very much enjoyed the book and was thinking of modeling a Kill Team squad around characters form this book. This becomes a problem because it seems that the commanders of Adeptus Astartes seem to be only primaris according to the Warhammer-community webpage.
The Rogue Trader box seemed more of a personal flavor option were this seems more like an official step towards something. I liken it to a DLC for a favorite video game adding some missions and some interesting side thing, where Commanders is the expansion and if you don’t have it you will eventually hit a digital wall telling you that the game is this way and you need to pay more to play the story forward. While I feel that adding certain types of models adds to the game, I feel that the way this is coming about is going to strong-arm the game into an arms race.
I also wish they would supply the faction card/tokens without having to by the miniature as well.
Great to see Sam improving the sartorial quotient of the show – sharp jacket man! I approve!
To the question in hand, for me, the Commander expansion is definitely a #Marvel. I totally accept the concerns and agree that the distortion of the meta could be an issue. But “meta” is a concept in games I just run a million miles from and never impacts on my play.
I play at home every couple of weeks with a mate I have played against for well over a decade now. I also play at a local club every couple of weeks. I play many, many different games – Frostgrave, LotR, KoW, Tanks, BA, K47, yadda yadda yadda. I am a complete butterfly gamer. I collect a game, paint it up, play it a few times, and then move on to something else. Listbuilding and kitbashing are things that simply don’t interest me very much so I spend as little time as possible doing them.
In short, I prefer breadth to length. At least as far as tabletop gaming is concerned!
With that background, a skirmish game that has a dozen or so models to paint up, some interesting terrain options, like KT, is a winner. Commander, I will probably acquire along with maybe the commander boxes for the factions I got in the starter box and have painted up and give it a whirl. I will not be playing anyone who really gets into the meta, at least for very long, and my “expertise” in the game will not likely progress far beyond “journeyman” status before something else catches my eye and I move on.
So for me, the Commander expansion is a potential buy. If nothing more tempting comes along in the meantime.
Marvel. With caveat, the price, which will be unnecessarily inflated for Australia and New Zealand (says the angry retailer – see my comments from last weeks piracy debate).
GW has added characters to the kill team game but lets face it, we aren’t talking about special characters that everyone has heard of. These are characters that no-one has heard of before, just like the characters in Shadespire. I doubt they will be overpowered or be auto-includes in everyone’s games.
GW has tried a number of character progression systems in a number of games, usually embedded in a campaign system. It will be guaranteed to have equal measures of ridiculous rewards and horrific injuries and mutations on offer. They rarely end well for players or their characters, with both being left scarred for life.
@warzan – Killers? Are you drunk? It may be the best of Paul Di’Anno’s albums, but there’s only 3 choices! Bruce Dickinson’s first album with the band made Iron Maiden a household name. And it’s clearly either Live after Death or Flight 666
I think adding in commanders is a good idea, I like the idea of killTeam being a slow-grow way into the hobby/start a new army. I expect transports to be added soonish. #Marvel
Wasn’t it the Rogue Trader game that effectively introduced Commanders along with its Crews into Killteam?
I see every faction now getting one an extension of that so things remain “fair”.
We’ll see more rogue trader-esque crews with new (named) commanders I have no doubt and we’ll see new factions that wouldn’t necessarily have gotten a full army release; the rumoured Inquisitor team but other things like Eldar Corsairs, etc..
Ie if commanders gives us more stuff then yeah I’m all for it.
I’d been thinking of an Eldar Corsair force as well. I remember ages ago a White Dwarf article on how to build a force of these protagonists.
I don’t play the game, but I would go with marvel, but it would come with the caveat if the mechanics can balance them out. If it becomes two huge hero’s that can only kill each other it’s changed the game completely
No new models? Mistake imho..
For beginners probably a Marvel tho.
Looking forward to Cruel Seas ?
Lovely minis and I’m sure as epic (and not entirely historical) as Bolt Action and Blood Red Skies.
So I’m definitely in ?
Happy Weekend, going with marvel as well, though it’s be great if you could design your own commander.
Leaning towards marvel. If this was part of a legacy/power up system it would be fantastic, you could have your basic team that gets promoted up the ranks and gains xp, eventually your leader becomes a captain or a librarian. You could choose your displines from your first game which then makes your team develop differently to some one with the same starter set, you can gain points for games played and battles won. If this was split into levels ie 1-10 games played is level 1, 10-20 games played level 2, I know some people will say that the games would not be even fairly matched but if you had a logbook of you teams development, there would be nothing stopping you dropping levels to play less experienced players and reliving a battle when your team was level 5. The game played would still count as a game played for xp if you were at level 11 for example. I think it is very easy for GW to put an old sprue in a new box if they added an extra small add on with alternative heads shoulder pads a weapon or two this would mean you could customise your leader and make you team unique or alternatively new sculpts would make me more interested.
Good show, guys. I LOVE the look of D6. Finished the show and then pledged immeditely! 🙂
I’m on the fence. Killteam has his nice own feel, but those commanders look really awesome.
Hi team I hope you enjoy your weekend. I’m going with MARVEL as more options are good … and you don’t have to use it every game It just gives you more options to tell stories …. (I have been plaing narrative skirmish and battle games a lot lately .. going back to my RPG roots … and loving gaming so much more by doing so)
#mistake
The draw of KT to me is the basic nature of the troops, the easy buy in and limited model counts. If (when) I want variety I know I can simply pick up a box for a different faction and go again.
As I only play casual games with friends I’m not worried about power creep side by not picking this up – we’ve agreed to pass on this until we’re tired of playing core set elements.
I do think it’s a clever move towards getting players into 40k, I have no issue with GW doing this it’s just not for me/my gaming group just yet.
For me GW is the mistake. They always seem to ruin whatever they put out by then flooding it with releases just aimed at making money, and seemingly ignore the reason for bringing out the game in the first place. If I were a billionaire with unlimited funds, I’d buy GW and close it down.
I backed The Edge Dawnfall Kickstarter but cancelled my pledge as they had so many delays, plus once they had taken the initial pledge monies from backers, they then decided to completely change the game that people had backed and pledged on.
If I won the kill team expansion, I’d simply give it to a friend as a gift
I feel the same way.
I’ve been out of GW (but in the hobby) for about 10 years, because of the shenanigans they kept pulling.
With starter boxes offering serious value (price and they use the same sprues you’d by separately) and the release of KT, I came back. I thought I could finally jump in without having to take out a second mortgage (I’m in Australia, for added effect).
However I’m quickly starting to wonder if I was fooled and that GW are in fact going to mess things up with constant expansions and expensive rulebooks required in order to play.
Yep. GW had their heyday in the 90s, and I can see why people remmeber them fondly, but their sales tactics since then (even the supposed “new and improved” GW) just make me glad I left them behind and haven’t looked back. So many great models and games from other companies – GW haven’t been missed at all.
Left GW systems behind must be close to a decade ago, and never missed them one bit. There are a LOT of other great companies out there, but a lot of people still have GW blinkers on, and nothing else exists for them. Shame as they’re missing out big time
Yep. It’s quite frustrating at times, but hey ho, it’s their loss!
I will have to look at Commanders before I make up my mind. My first thought is that I’m not a fan but I’ll keep an open mind.
I’m going with marvel. It’s always nice to have an opportunity to explore the skirmish side of your commander doing special operations supported by a few companions.
It would be even better to have something like this for age of sigmar!
Kill Team Commanders, definite Marvel. Another great show ?
Marvel: commanders add more options, which is good
gamers have really got to get used to the idea that they don’t HAVE to use all the things all the time (especially when they’re optional like they are here). Come on kiddies if you don’t want to use them don’t, if you don’t want to use them in a pick up game don’t, if your opponent insists either walk away (or simply swamp him with extra bodies after all the commanders aren’t free)
On kill team and commanders – its definitely not a Marvel for me, but I don’t think it’s a mistake either – more a missed opportunity. I don’t disagree with many of the points, made except possibly @dignity on a few. To my mind kill team will not be anything but a narrative game, and a commander should only really be there as targets to be bodyguarded, or assassinated. Where I think it is a missed opportunity is the marketing, if this was being used to introduce new character not seen on the front line I would be more interested, in fact much like the Legion specialists.
In general the kill team marketing is a turn off, while if you are coming into kill team the boxes are good value, as an established player you are being given the choice of missing option or re-buying minis you don’t need.
To the points I disagree with @dignity – how are they going to expand the game – go wide rather than deep, in short encourage the players to pick up new teams it is the staple of skirmish games. The appeal to me is the 6-15 minis and done. Then a new project. The second point is the effect, in a limited arena the power character are much harder to counter, particularly in 40k were the commanders were impactful because of stats rather than command abilities. As an aside how is re-selling mini making new product? Extending the life of an existing product ..
And now for something different, and of the many historical gurus able to give me some history to really draw me into cruel seas it looks interesting but not got the pull of other historical games possibly due to ignorance of details.
More lord of the rings amazing news, and nice minis, guess I can have a Gandalf the white for Gondor and a separate one for rohan
Dammit @warzan I had to go find Killers to remember the tracks – for me has to be number of the beast
I’m far from up to date on GW, but from what I hear a lot of their issues could be solved by defining organised play for all of their games. Do like Privateer press does and release an OP document that defines a standardised tournament and a standardised slow grow league. Do this for Kill Team and have it that at after x games or once your team has earned however many XP they can gain access to the commanders pack. Again later do the same for vehicles. They could have an organised format that starts from5 models and over 6 months transitions into 40k. That sounds like fun to me.
This youtube vs war business: Doesn’t this just mean that news and historical chanels gets hidden? Surely this is censorship of a form? Hiding the news seems very wrong (And very in keeping with the current situation in America.)
You can bet mainstream media outlets have a pass mate.
That sounds selective and exclusionary, but at least thats something. They aren’t burrying bad events entirely wether intentionaly or accidentally. if they do that then perhaps there is a way to apply for some kind of media/press pass. You are a (highly specialised) news site, after all.
The pass is POWER & $$$ unfortunately mate.
YouTube really isn’t doing itself any favours. I predict within 5 years there will be an alternative.
Vimeo already exists as an alternative for some formats.
We’re effectively going back to square one : small websites & forums dedicated to specific subjects.
However each and everyone of those alternatives will run into the same problem YouTube is having :
Pleasing the governments (people already have been convicted of ‘liking’ the wrong news in Europe) & existing media publishers (who prefer fighting ‘piracy’ over helping consumers pay for content without silly restrictions).
Neither can be done without access to a ton of resources/money.
/potentially political rant
Could be worse we have seen channels deleted because they talked about war.
And some channels don’t get deleted despite all of that.
YouTubes’ antics aren’t random. The tinfoil hat brigade would claim that there is a bias to certain political agendas who get a free pass to rant whereas others with get deleted ‘by accident’.
I’ve got a sneaky suspicion that some of the historical content that OTT has been doing would have been flagged by YouTube and the hordes of *beeps* trying to keep people from learning other aspects of life.
I’ve seen similar things happen on G+ (which Google is shutting down this year after hiding a major data breach). And the various communities are looking at alternatives (I have suggested OTT as an alternative :-D).
Anyways … I like OTT/BeastsOfWar because we get to talk about gaming without the idiot ranting (it’s impossible to talk about stuff without someone shouting instead of having a proper argument) that infects the rest of the internet/society.
If the proposition is that the Commanders expansion for Kill Team is a #mistake because Games Workshop are taking a product of their’s that is different, perhaps original, and even unique amoungst their offerings ( Kill Team in this case ) and are changing it so that it will essentially become the same as their other products ( particularly W40K in this case and many cases ), albeit with a different ‘face’, then i think the concern is too little too late. This is Games Workshop’s modus operandi.
The 500th store minis are limited in store, but you will be able to order them in store only if they run out, so if you want one and can get to a store you will be able to get one
Guess Marvel as it drawing me back to 40k as I have such little spare time for hobby these days. I can see vehicles in there. A team rock up on bikes/jetbikes and have rules to dsmount. Could get all very wild west shoot out.
I can vaguely remember a variant of 40k called “Combat Patrol” which I think was based around Fast Attack options and Troops with Transports.
It may have only been a series of articles in White Dwarf, perhaps collected in a Chapter Approved.
I think that will be GW’s next port of call for an expansion to Kill Team or 40k offshoot.
I’m not a Kill Team player, so feel free to disregard my opinions 🙂 To me though, adding named heroes seems at odds with what I think the game ought to be. It’s small scale, every model counts, yet some models count so much more than the others. Mistake IMO.
I have to go with Marvel. Although I use the term Marvel in the sense that I don’t think it’s a mistake. I don’t think it’s a marvel.
I think Commanders is fine and it allows people to introduce the larger than life characters that you always see in adventure stories. Bernard Cornwell is a great example of this. His books are laden with interesting characters but there’s always one central character. In his Saxon Chronicles it’s Uhtred, in the Sharpe novels it’s Richard Sharpe. Dan Abnett does the same with Gaunts Ghosts and of course there’s always Col. Schaeffer and hisast chancers. There’s no real way to make those characters in Kill Team. What you’re really doing is building a single squad but in great detail and the biggest character you would find is a squad leader (sergeant or equivalent). Commanders allows you to build in things like the Colonel Commissar Gaunt or Captain Richard Sharpe. As long as they don’t go mad turn it into hero hammer.
As for kill team being about regular joes, I have never seen it like that. They’re always the elites rather than the regulars. So I don’t think that commanders actually detracts from that. If anything it compliments it – someone of status wouldn’t be assigned to the regular joes, they would be assigned to a squad of elites.
Happy Weekend everyone,
First can I say I struggled with the volume of Justin when compared to the other three. I was listening on a laptop though so it may be because of that but to hear Justin properly I would have to adjust my volume up, then when the other guys spoke I had to adjust down. In the end I just stopped bothering and worked on my lip reading skill instead.
Interesting that there seems to be a reference to established meta in relation to the Kill Team game only. If you take into account the novels as well there have been instances of single space marines being sent as a Kill Team on their own. Also I like the idea of being able to field single powerful miniatures. Time and again we have references to how powerful certain infantry types are in comparison to the grunts but with game balancing we don’t really see those differences. Difficult to judge without having read and been given more info on these new items so for now #martake.
I am interested to see how Warlord move forward with the latest ship game release. I know the models to be lovely as we saw an example at the Boot Camp and fingers crossed they will blend in with Blood Red Skies to allow us to play out more of the Japanese-US conflict.
Yeah for the last few weeks I haven’t been able hear what he’s saying either.
Blessing in disguise?
It’s a bit of both.
It has potential, but the execution pushes it towards the ‘mistake’ category for me.
I also think this leads to the same sillyness that tanks cause in skirmish games. They require the opponent to either have a commander too or bring anti commander units just to survive. And that kind of takes the fun out of such small unit sized battles. It might not be an auto-win, but it will feel like an auto loose for your opponent if you bring a commander and he doesn’t.
The commanders are a bit of overkill in the killteam command structure, which IMHO should be more A-team/spec ops style.
What’s the point of having a ‘leader’ if you can use a ‘commander’ instead ?
However I think a ‘commander’ might make more sense for the low tier kill teams (like Imperial guard) who will have more conscripts and less ‘elite’ specialists.
The top tier factions (like Spacemarines) already have a spec ops feel that a special commander doesn’t really fit. And yet these get one ?
OTOH … the Harlequins needed a specialist leader and while they do appear to get rules they don’t get stuff to buy at retail.
The worst part of this new feature is the simple fact that not every faction gets its special ‘commander box’. Eldar and Harlequins do get mentioned on their website, but Chaos factions don’t even get a hint of what their ‘commander’ might be like. It probably will get fixed, but it also sort of shows which factions get the preferential treatment in Killteam. AFAIK the missing factions are the same ones that didn’t get a special killteam team either …
As a non compulsory option, I’ll say marvel.
I am going with #marvel. In Kill team commander the mission dictates who can have a commander and at what point cost. this sound very thematic as i learn more about this expansion to kill team. Thumb up Games Workshop
One also has to get one’s opponent’s agreement on the use of this expansion – perhaps it is better described as a supplement.
Yes i would assume you would work that out with some kind of social contraction with your opponent when setting up the game.
I would say it’s neither. Then again it doesn’t have any options that I would like to use as Space Marines only get Primaris characters. I was really wanting to use that Blood Angels Chaplain (one with winged jump pack) in my games of KT. I am also disappointed that you can’t make character that you want. So to me this expansion is pass because it doesn’t add anything that I would want to use in my games of KT.
i think kill team commanders is a marvel because its a great way to add depth to the game and grow your own 40k universe
Atlas Infernal is kinda “Time Bandits” – perhaps a Doctor Who homage to Time Bandits. Really good 40k novels (IMO – my taste in fiction is a lot more mainstream) are thin on the ground, but this is definitely a goodun.
Good idea I believe.
I am going with #Marvel. Just from the fact that it may bring more people into the game. It may also lead to some very cinematic moments in a game, ie. character vs character, or the lucky roll from the ordinary joe that takes the other teams hero out. This leads to you and your gaming friends talking about “that time” whenever you get together.
Not interested in purchasing Commanders yet. Ug.. still need to play the game … so little time *sigh*
In regards to Kill Team Commander, I’m in two minds. I like the idea about being able to bring a commander in, but I’m a little disappointed. I was hoping there would be some new sculpts, and additional terrain. #martake
Thank you so much for changing the prize claim center –er.. not that I won or will win a prize .. but it’s cool to have a place to check things up in case I missed something due to lack of sleep lol.
no problem we should have thought of it sooner tbh!
Marvel, more options.
#marvel GeeDubya spotted a cash cat and are milking it for all it’s worth. Which is fine by me, I like slick games systems with gorgeous figures thank you.
Very interested to see what options it gives you for Gellerpox and Rogue Traders commanders or do they only have the one?
#Marvel
Its a close call. As a newcomer Kill Team is a cheaper entry to 40k, so an expensive expansion is a big negative. However, as a gateway game to 40k, it makes sense and expands the options for Kill Team for future play. I’d rather see ongoing expansions than have it as another game that gets one run and dissappears.
So, as much as I don’t have an issue with GW trying to make money, I’d have to go with mistake on this one. Lean on the learnings of old Necromunda and let your leaders graduate to greater power, or let your troopers build up. I feel like there is too much opportunity here for unintended consequences to the meta and even further need for errata, etc. So yeah, have to say #Mistake on this one.
Mistake including minis in the upgrade packs. Would be enough to have upgrades cards and abilities to add to existing teams.
Marvel; I think that it will just add more stories to be played out on the table.
Happy weekender guys! these commander just are way to expensive for my linking, and as may other say, way to overpowered
You might want to edit your automatic prize notification email… it’s sent by the ‘OnTebleTop’ team…
Marvel is my opinion on Killteam…
I have Rogue Trader which includes Commanders and having played the basic Killteam… the squads feel a bit boring, so the addition of unique characters and commanders gives it more narrative feel, more like a role-play party taking on the villain in an RPG… which is how Wolsung plays really.
Necromunda was a pain to play with so many miniatures looking similar (i ended up numbering the minis) and Killteam is a lot like that.
Ok, I have one concern. Is BoW accidentally spreading misinformation? Your reviewing a new product, but it appears you aren’t that familiar with the actual content of the product.
You ask, must effective kill teams now have a commander?
At least from the rogue trader rules, I had thought commander missions were similar to the old cities of death missions for 40k. They weren’t just the same 40k game. It was a different type of mission that involved different forces, and both players agreed to the difference before hand. It was an alternate form of 40k, not just an upgrade.
My understanding is kill team commanders is similar. To play using them, you have to agree to play “commanders” specific missions, that involve building specific lists. Am I wrong? How long did you guys have to digest the rules before making this video? I am concerned in an effort to get this content out quickly, you didn’t fully take the time to understand it.
Not being confrontational, just inquiring.
In terms of Marvel vs Mistake: Both
Marvel: I like it because KT always reminds me of playing out video game scenarios and action movie scenes on the tabletop. This expansion allows those hugely cinematic, asymmetric scenes that are “Bossfights”. A bunch of average joes against the enemy super commander. Thing Arnold’s team from predator against the predator. Alternatively you are one awesome hero, against the enemy hordes, like BJ Blaskowicz in Wulfenstein. These “One Against Many” can play out well, particularly if the objective is NOT “kill them all”.
Mistake: I just think this was just too soon. Do we already need a “new way to play” a nearly brand new product.
If you want a full review of the impact of Commanders I’d suggest Guerrilla Miniature Games – they have a review of the book and a separate Let’s Play.
Marvel – it adds a new way to play and can be very cinematic
I don’t currently play Kill Team so no idea how the expansion would affect things game wise. Theme-wise I feel that it will just make it feel more like a 40k skirmish. I like the new prize center, the only issue I have with it is that my username isn’t on there currently 😛
#Marvel
I don’t see that its un-thematic or outside of the spirit of kill team to have, for example, a Librarian, or a Chaplain, or even a Captain join your team occasionally to pull off an important mission behind enemy lines.
I would have to say it is a Marvel for most but not for me game play wise. The group I play in has a bit of an issue for most games. There are some who play the fluffy style and build/play armies or teams that look nice to them or that follow a theme. The rest maximize every point and unit they can whether it makes “sense” or not. We generally get along well for small games and at the beginning of campaigns but as the sizes grow and campaigns expand things get difficult.
There are too many examples to list but I am sure everyone knows what I mean. I am concerned that this will alter our fairly evenly matched battles to a point where they become unfun. But I am sure I will buy it anyway.
As an aside we once ran an escalation series which I mostly enjoyed. Started small and built up as we went. I took a route different then everyone else and enjoyed it immensely but could not convince anyone else to try it. Since I have a goodly number of different units I went I decided that any “special or elite” units destroyed in the the battles were indeed destroyed and I had to replace them with different units in the next game. Any heroes that died , died and I could not use that particular build again. It resulted in me using a lot of models I normally did not take and using spells and units I rarely used. We never did finish as usual but I enjoyed it quite a bit.
I forgot to mention that the prize area is a great and welcome addition. Sometimes I found it difficult to hear all the winners even with repeated viewings so it is much appreciated.
#Marvel More options is never bad and it feels more thematic ala Gaunt Ghosts
I dunno, Kill Team is small scale skirmish fun. Adding bigger and more powerful characters works against that, I reckon. I’d rather have seen expanded rosters from the existing armies. Makes sense from a sales point of view, though! What’s next, the vehicle expansion?
please … no vehicles …
that would make me a sad panda.
i saw some of the figs at the bolt action boot camp very cool.
Woop! Woop! Jammie (I wish – I’m actually at work!) dance! Very excited for the prize – thank you!
Until I play it (or actually hear more about it), commanders is a mistake for me. I’m enjoying KT as it is – there was more scope to improve the story first.
I’m on the fence on which to choose. I’ll say Marvel since it allows more options for those who want it, but then again, I just play casually with close friends so I don’t really consider the overall meta. We most likely will stick with just regular troops for killteam.
Marvel. More options means more narrative oportunities.
Cheers!
#Marvel — Kill Team expansion is a response to Star Wars Legion. I see Star Wars Legion growing and maybe this is a way to blunt that growth. I have yet to see Kill Team locally but Star Wars Legion used to be a Sunday only game and now the local shops in my area are running games Thursday, Saturday and Sunday. I have a very small view of the industry but I see Star Wars Legion continue to grow. Kill Team and they way they are expanding is trying to get new players who may want in the future go to full 40K. They will continue to expand it IMHO.
As a side note, I say it is the nanny state EU that is causing the changes to YouTube. The idea that censorship will somehow change behavior is nonsense.
It’s hard for me to judge as I haven’t played Kill Team yet, but I’m edging on #Marvel; I’m with Sam and Justin on how when you look at BL novels you often have a hero leading a group of grunts as the focus and I don’t think just taking a team leader would accurately reflect that. I think perhaps the important thing is the gaming group you play with to avoid abusing them and keeping them special.
Like the look of the Nighthaunt special mini, looks unique without being too flashy.
I agree with @warzan on SWLegions and heroes, although I don’t think KTCommanders is a perfect analogy; it’d be more like if KTC let you take the big name special characters rather than generic characters.
Surely with a submersible army you do have minis, you just magnitise them and play on (or rather under) a metal table. ?
Z-Man – is that two steps below X-Man? ?
Marvel – with caveats. Since I haven’t read the rules, I might be supposing a lot here, but from what I get in Rogue Trader, Commanders add more objectives possibilities to Kill Team. The zero points cost is fine if both teams take commanders, but if only one team uses a commander, the other teams should have some sort of compensation. The idea of a group of grunts tasked with killing an extremely strong leader really appeals to me.
I think I would say Marvel. It is going to help new players start to build up to bigger armies but, I am hoping that it will allow you to start with your commander, Just joining the army and then expanding though his military career.
Why is there no Dong to Ding on this page? You really ought to have one, even if it does nothing. How about a Horn to Honk?
This is a huge #marvel for me. Kill Team is the best attempt GW has made to attract new blood into the game. It is a lot easier for a parent to stomach the cost of a Kill Team product every couple of months instead of dumping hundreds of dollars all at once on a 40k army.
I’ll start with #Marvel, because It’s going to get me to buy a couple of mini’s that I liked, but otherwise had no reason to buy, but now I do!
But for me it’s not whether or not they _should_ bring it out, but _*when*_.
Just listening to this you make it sound like the game has been out for years, and this new expansion has turned on it’s head an old venerable game with a huge legacy behind it.
Guys, it only came out in July!!
The game was released in July, it’s now October, and we’ve already got a boxed set for each faction, a fully formed expansion in the shape of Rogue Trader, and now Commanders! in the space of about 3 months!
For me, I like the idea of the commanders, but I have only just managed to finish painting the terrain from the core box, and my first dedicated kill team is getting it’s final couple of models painted for it.
Years ago you got a bit of life out of a product before the next kit was released. Yes, we all love buying more figures than we can possibly paint in a lifetime, but I need some breathing space between kits!
I’m a dad of a toddler, so I don’t get the time to put in like I used to. But I still need more than a few weeks of a game before we get the next instalment. Am I the only one?
Personally, I would have had Rogue Trader come out for Christmas, then the commanders some time 1st quarter next year. Give people time to play the game before the next thing is released.
It’s not like they haven’t already got a huge number of games getting releases these days too. It’s Orktober for a start! Do we need the commanders this month?
Actually … we don’t have a boxed set for each faction.
The Eldar and Chaos factions don’t have an official killteam box.
And looking at the commanders they appear to be left out of the release schedule again.
We seem to get a new release at the start of each month that consists of:
A Killzone
2 Kill Teams
which are themed in some way around a terrain set…
I’m hoping that the Eldar are going to be teamed with one of the Chaos releases, but there isn’t much in the way of current terrain that GW can rebox into the Killzone that they haven’t already used – only the Aegis Defence Line and Tau tine left – and they already released the Tau Kill Team with Wall of Martyr terrain.
Perhaps we get another Rogue Trader type box with new terrain, Eldar Corsairs and Slaanesh themed Chaos – #wishlisting
ooh … Eldar vs Slaanesh … now that would be an insta buy for me.
Although I think that Slaanesh might be considered a bit *eh* too much these days.
They did a reveal of a new Beast of Slaanesh recently on the Warhammer Community website. Since most of GWs new products are tending to come in big boxes these days…
I guess that it will feature in the Realm of Chaos: Wrath and Rapture set – could be a duel AoS/40K starter box.
But we were promised that beasts would feature in Kill Team at some point – I think it was during some publicity for KT Commanders but I can’t be sure at this point.
Happy weekend everyone! Just home from work to sit and hobby while watching the show! One more week until no work for a week!
Anyways, I’ve bought Kill Team, I like the sound of it, I’ve seen it played, but… I’ve yet to play it myself, this Commanders idea is a marvel for me. The idea of a commander with his honour guard or some kind of leader leading a band of “normies” is great! I actually loved the whole Hero-Hammer thing from back in 2nd edition, so maybe I am a little bias. I do see why others like Ben don’t like it so much, but then from a GW point of view it creates a new hotness thing that people will need to buy, and perhaps for newer players, its a squad and a HQ unit, that’s giving people access to the bigger 40K game itself. Once suckered into that there’s no stopping peoples spending on the hobby 🙂 (speaking from some experience)
Lots of great work in the community again, its always motivating to me when I see others work!
See you all tomorrow… now I better remember take pictures of hobby work to update projects today…
Marvel it will be good for people to replace their finecast models un less their fine cast that is? I think it will be for small commando type games as Justin was talking about.
I just checked out the new “claim a prize” and was excited to see I won a prize! I very rarely enter to win anything, I’m not here to get free stuff I’m here for the news and to stay in the community (there hasn’t been much community in my area in a long time, heck we just got a gaming store to open back up in my city earlier this year… the last one closed 20 years ago… course it seems to be overrun with Magic players but I keep trying to have painting/ hobby days ever couple weeks… hard work…) So it was really cool to win something, totally did a Jammie dance.
Time bandits! Why is there no game for that!
There was a card game but I don’t think it’s in print anymore:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38164/time-bandits
“a fan project” … well that’s not really “official” 😉
You never specified ‘official’ 😉
Kill team commanders is a great Idea I think. Have’t played kill-team yet, but with my small gaming group consisting of married dads we don’t have a lot of play-time. Kill-team is on our list to get some 40k gaming done again and everything that makes increases my choices in that area is a plus. And I play harlequins.
Most of all, my two boys show an ingterest in the hobby and a full 40k army is just not something I would recommend, both money and painting time constraints. If they’ll ever want a real faction of their own, kill-team should be they way to ga, and they’ll want a big bad
Marvel. Why? It was Robin Hood and his marry men. Not just his marry men. lol… . Heroes open up another naritive aspect to the game for me personally. I do see the point of it possibly turning into “Hero Hammer”.
On a side note. My wife had me cracking up. She said Ben looked like General Zod in the “Fantom Zone”.
Cheers from California. Happy gaming
kill team
Nice one Guy’s love the show.
I am on the fence with this. What I really like is the development of the Killteam itself. I was hoping that the Commanders did the same. You start with a basic librarian, commissar, death jester or whatever, and slowly add skills as the commander gains experience. The “plug in what you want” seems a bit disruptive and contrary to the existing system. Having not seen the rules yet, I am only speculating.
Great show. I’m not sur if KillTeam Commanders is a Marvel or a Mistake but I’m sure GW did this to bring people who play only Kill Team to 40K Games itself. After some squads, a HQ. We might see light vehicle in another expansion. Kill Team is the perfect Gateway games and for those with big armies but less time top lay, can do som match and even league or Campaign.
that primaris helmet mask….”Luke. Help me take this mask off. Let me look upon you with my own eyes…”
Marvel. Kill Team is just becoming more, if the new supplement is what I think it is, like Shadow War Armageddon where the specialist have more powerful leaders in the rosters.
I view the addition of commanders a good option for kill team. They may be powerful but in kill team they can’t hide behind the troops like in 40k making them a bit more vulnerable and using up a lotta points means less models to get objectives with. Over all I think its a cool option for playing the game.
Liking the new prize centre (didn’t even realise the big giveaway from the US show had been announced). On the Commanders expansion for Kill Team, yup I agree with Warren and Ben. It’s all a bit “hero hammer”, and will mean that your poor grunts just will not have a chance. Again would be interesting to see if someone comes up with a houserule to use the new commanders rules to expand on the level up for your current “grunt leader” to make them not quite a hero/commander but somewhere inbetween.
Kill Team / 40k with Solo Play expansion please!
Having not played with commanders yet difficult to say but I am leaning toward Marvel but I don’t think I will be buying anything beyond the expansion, the individual leaders don’t hold any interest as I probably have half of the figures somewhere.
On Kill team #MISTAKE, I like it better as more of a grunts game less Hero Hammer.
Mistake. I hope it isn’t but that was my initial reaction to commanders. I quite like the fact that my leader specialist can and usually does die an inglorious death at the hands of some unnamed grunt.
Also, just checked the prize centre.
Woohoo! Jammie dance!
I pledged für the fantastic “clockwork” Angel of Death bust-shrine resin model from “The Edge” by Awaken Realms (see my BoW Avatar). Painted it up in Patina Bronze – to use as scenery centerpiece – a powerful Mechanicus relic from the Dark Age of Technology. I liked the loyalist Mars Tech-Priestess character from the Horus Heresy Graham McNeil Mechanicus novel.
I think the commander box is a marvel. Games Workshop has been knocking it out of the park lately!
#Marvel. For a hobby longbeard it allows me to use more of the models I have sat on the shelf. Having watched a number of product reviews for commanders today it looks like the play style and missions you choose have the balance right for the narrative of the game, rather than everyone auto including the most powerful warrior they can into every game.
I am on the marvel side. But I have not read the rules so I am commenting only about the thought of commanders. It gives a lot extra to narrative and options. But I hope they don’t make them over powered though.
Happy Saturday y’all.
I will say #Mistake. I worry that it will unbalance the game.
A total Marvel, optional expansion and more room to grow but not in any way required.
Marvel for me as i always enjoy my opponents pain when they lose a leader model .
@warzan Phantom of the opera is on Iron Maiden (self titled first album) not Killers. Sorry dude. Track 4. Segues into Strange World I believe.
Re: Kill Team. This is our current Thursday night gaming event for October and I am loving it. Lost both games so far against Eldar and Genestealer Cult. My Necrons have been outnumbered 2:1 in both games and because of the flesh wound system models can be really survivable. Based on my limited play experience I would say Commanders could be a Marvel in kill team as the horde mechanic is really strong so it should limit their game breaking potential.
I totally get Warren’s point about taking the spotlight off the ‘regular grunts’ but as long as we don’t see stupid big monsters like Hive Tyrants introduced I think it could work really well particularly if the customisation potential is strong in their mechanics.
Just to note, for me the sign of a great game is one you can lose but not care and this game is that. Tight and tactical and so satisfying to play.
I like the addition of commanders. Kill team limited the number of choices of troops. I like that you can have a kill team trying to assassinate the enemy commander. #marvel
I’m liking the idea of Leaders. It gives Killteam another layer of complexity, if you want it.
If you dont want it, you can just stick with the core game and play as before.
Plus its a nice option to have now or in the future should you want to branch out a bit.
I’ll call Marvel, so the Kill Team Pussy can add that one to her collection.
Personally I hope GW keep this momentum and continue to release new add ons and new layers of gaming for this, because it is an absolutely brilliant game.
@warzan – You Sir are WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGG! The greatest Iron Maiden album, and indeed the greatest album of all time, is Powerslave! I trust you will remember this in future and adjust your rhetoric about the Worlds most brilliant band accordingly!
#marveltake for me! I’m with @warzan on the first part of his comments (before he swichted up, again lol) and i’m also with @dracs with his nice point with “Bringing the camera closer on the commander”. I still haven’t played a game of Kill Team but, i am a tad concerned with power creap with the commanders being full fledge characters, because we did saw this before…
I hope GW plan on a “alien terrain” for Kill Team : Tau scenery anyone?
#mistake
We just finished Season 1 of our local Kill Team campaign. Kill Team has the potential to be a good game but it’s rough in a few places.
First, it has significant balancing issues. They aren’t big when you start out but as the specialists level up, the synergies aren’t not reflected in their points costs. I had some fairly bad luck as my specialists kept dying so I was facing level 2 and 3 specialists with level 1 specialists. Our points were the same but it was fairly lopsided.
Second, a fair number of the scenarios aren’t well thought out. In some, it’s simply not possible for one side to acheive the victory conditions for the scenario. Instead, they have to ignore the scenario and attempt to break the other kill team.
They should’ve put more effort into refining the basic game, or expanding on the troop choices. Maybe even making kill team specific models.
For what it’s worth, both players have to agree to include commanders. And the scenario has to specify that option too.
They will sort all of those issues with 2nd edition, which I expect will release on the one year anniversary of Kill Team, ie August next year… Assuming GW decide to support the game going forward.
Path to Glory is still out there for AOS. On the fence but as you said do not need it to play.
Marvel as adding hero’s is great given the strong Fluff of 40k. I’m s big fan of Dust 1947 and my fav part of that system is not being overly punished for having a narrative list something I feel GW games do. Part of the fun of playing games with great fluff is playing the fluff when you can’t easiily do that it hurts the experience IMO. Commanders helps with that.
I am disappointed by GWs sudden reversion to crap pricing on the last few releases.
Marvel for me. I play with my 13 old son and we both feel adding Commanders will add another level of complexity and the possibility for more narrative gaming. As others have said, the feel of the game takes me back to original Rogue Trader. If it becomes over powered, well then we’ll stop using them or house rule them.
Marvel-GW finally put out something (the new Kill Team in general) to get me to buy their products again after a 10+ year hiatus.
And….
Mistake-they need to have finished releasing the remaining starter sets for the initial factions: all the chaos, Harlequins, Grey Knights. What terrain do they plan to fill those boxes?
I think I am probably going to say Marvel as it is adding a layer to Kill Team that appeals to me.
Definitely a marvel. Just more ways to start out for new comers and an excellent way to get a game in with less time
Sometimes it feels that games workshop just makes a lot of stuff just to see what sticks but in this case I believe the new kill team expansion is a #marvel
Commanders are a “Mistake” in terms of my preferences for KillTeam (really, “Marvel” is your SEO revenge for being downrated for “war”?). I have always been more interested in the grunts rather than the heroes in my games anyway, but even more so than this and the difficulties of balancing the gameplay, I dislike the special tokens, ability cards etc. that the commanders are introducing. Rather than making KillTeam a welcome “In” to the universe of W40k that lets you use and collect any variety of units as you please, this is just the usual money making exercise of having to buy certain sets. Just when I was about to get started with KillTeam by buying the rules and picking up a unit or two just because I had fancied building and painting them for a while (Genestealer Cult and Militarum Tempestus), this has killed all my motivation. Thankfully there are plenty of flexible skirmish options from Osprey and others now that can be used in a W40k setting.
#Marvel. Commanders adds more depth to the game.. can’t wait to have some stories to tell..
#marvel
GW are a company and this is a completely normal business practice. Release new content that is small but will have a large impact. It resets the Meta and alters strategy.
TCG games have been running this formula for ever and video games do it a lot too e.g. new maps, weapons, character roster and so on.
I do understand that folks might be a bit peeved who have played 40k and AoS and so on but GW need to keep the game alive and this is the only way they know how other than global campaigns.
Mistake and Marvel at the same time, because the Primaris and Magos are cheaper in the set, than when you get them solo and because the commissar is higher in price in the set, that when you get it it solo. So some get a discount and others not. All sets have the same price tag.
China and Germany, Hamburg-Bergedorf open the same day. But China opens first.
going to say marvel as not played going to be think will be nice start point
I think commanders are positive in general. It gives more of a “character” feel to the game. Plus, I’m holding out for a SoB kill team with a canoness leader!
Sweet video guys as always… Honestly looking forward to the kill team experience. Just a shame its going to cost me £35 for the manual and £16 for the tokens just to put 1 figure on the table.
BeersOfWar!!! Happy gaming everyone. Thanks for a great show.
Kill team commanders…. A marvellous mistake? It’s good if it introduces new players to more models and gets them more into wargaming, but a mistake for GW if old players start to realise skirmish games are just as fun and less expensive.
A marvellous mistake? Marvellous if it slowly introduced new players into more models, and slowly lures them into bigger wargames. But a mistake for gw if older players start to realise skirmish games are just as much fun and cost less to play. (Apologises if this comment has appeared before – the comments box is playing up for me)
Mistake. I think the characters will unbalance the game and take the spotlight away from the grunts, becoming HeroHammer. Also, the prices seem a bit steep… although this is GW.
I think it is a good expansion for Kill Team and expanse it in another direction.
Great idea on the claim a prize re-design. Thanks for the show.
Tried kill team out for the first time last week. Was a fantastic small game. Would like to see how commanders would work in my death guard
#Marvel as I feel kill team is intended as a gateway game, or simply a more manageably scaled take on 40k, I think that bringing in a few stronger individuals is a fairly natural evolution. I gather from elsewhere that using them at all requires that both players be using commanders so it should not be forcing players to use them in order to be competitive unless your opponents just stop playing without them entirely.
I think that there is room in kill team to introduce other elements from 40k in more narrative roles. What if there was a broken down Leman Russ somewhere on the table that an Imperial Kill Team could attempt to repair? What if an ancient Dreadnought were prowling the ruins? Could your squad requisition bikes or call on a gunship for air support?
I kinda have mixed feelings about this but I think in the end its a good thing, since it can add a little bit more personality to your kill teams.
Marvel, for the very reason you guys eventually stumbled on: Kill Team, in my mind, is designed to be a build-up type game. It lets you start a new faction with a single squad, which makes it seem totally harmless to your wallet. But then you add a commander. And then you’re one squad away from having a small force. And before you know it, you’ve sunk $1000 into a brand new massive army. But wait, is that another new shiny squad for another faction over there? We could just grab that for Kill Team. There’s no harm in one squad. And maybe a commander…
But it also lets me pit a single commander against a squad in what should be the ultimate hunt/assassination mission.
Seems forced and takes away from the group of single warriors. We’re now back to hero hammer where the little guy doesn’t matter anymore meh
Marvel, it Commander’s gives me the rules to create a Cain or Guant like character with the new ability to take Commissars. This addition only expands the narrative possibilities of a kill team, and more importantly is not required to continue playing and enjoying the game. Given how quick the games of Kill Team go, it should be no problem to play an opponent without commanders if that your preference, and a game with commanders if that’s his/her preference. The time commitment and the lists are small enough that adjusting one’s list to allow or disallow commanders over the course of multiple games is a straight forward and relatively simple affair.
For me personally Kill Team Commanders are a mistake. It is not only because i prefere the different scale with just the normal soldiers and that i have to buy a miniature, i already have, again to get it rules. It is also, because i think it is a wasted opportunity, with them rushing out all this commanders at once. Instead of repacking old miniatures, they could have used it to introduce new miniatures, or at least use it to put some additional weapon options into it.
But for GamesWorkshop as a company it is marvel, killteam is mostly targeted at new customers,at least for me it looks like it. And in this case the target group does not really care, that there are no new miniatures. And i completly agree with you,with commanders they are slowly nudging newcomers towards 40k.
Marvel, anything that gives you choice is a good thing, plus I’d only want a Commander that I’ve built not a pregen one. That said I would rather see something bringing in “elite” troop types that you can only have one of, an Ogryn for Guard for example. Also I’d really like to see something that allowed several players work together against an AI horde. Me and the chaps want to play like this, we’re not interested in fighting each other but would love to play working together to complete the mission, against waves of mooks.
Marvel as long as they are not “auto includes”
I would have to say marvel. It will add content and I you would not be obligated to use it if you did not want to.
I think I’d be inclined to say the commanders addition to Killteam is a #marvel rather than a #mistake.
And I say that as someone who instinctively feels more drawn to the idea of creating my own characters from basic troops rather than using pre-created, more powerful characters.
I think it’s a mistake to think of this game as (just) a skirmish between a bunch of lowlifes who develop their own characters. Sure, it can be that, and this is where the fun is going to be for a lot of us. But that’s also what, say Necromunda is about too.
This game is about a scale and a type of zoomed in action, not just the character development of the grunts. The Rogue Trader expansion showed what can be done at this scale, and why it can be good to have a greater diversity of power levels among characters. Because for some stories, this is just right.
A couple of final observations. Firstly, GW is a lot less about kitbashing these days than it was a decade ago. The current Killteam is much less about it and conversions than it would have been back in the day. So adding characters is less of a departure from where the game is now than it is or would have been from earlier inarnations of it. Secondly, this is its own game, with its own mechanics and opportunities for telling stories. Powerful characters adds opportunities to tell stories in a way that aren’t possible with the more zoomed out approach of 40K.
Well, as somebody who doesn’t have any of the commander models, I’m kind of interested of some of these, although I understand some people might be frustrated to rebuy models they already own. Although I wonder if it would be OK to use the named commanders as proxies – I’d like to use the Rune Priest as a non-Space Wolves librarian.
I’ve always seen Kill Team as a more narrative game. And while one aspect may be a hapless, nameless commander leading a rag-tag bunch of soldiers, another aspect is that of the veteran commander leading a crack troop of warriors on a near impossible mission. The team being hand picked to ensure success. The new Kill Team stuff allows an expansion of the narrative and allows players to take either option in their games, which widens the scope and audience.
From a practical perspective, it also acts increasingly as a gate way game into 40k. The Commander models go with the troops to start building your bigger force.
So for me, it’s a marvel.
Marvel for me, it’s nice to broaden out the narrative with a few higher level targets. Hopefully it doesn’t start a powercreep as that the only downside I can see.
If I have to choose I would say Marvel. The DC heroes are mostly either God-powered or complete wusses that need robot suits to even the playing field. The Marvel heroes are more down to earth.
Same goes for Kill Team. Marvel, that is.
The kill teams are supposed to represent elite squads of individuals out on critical missions. What is more elite individual than heroes?
I
m all for the idea of building up your force from lowly grunts to vets, and when you feel like using another force you look at whats available and start over which is what ill be looking at doing. One of the main reasons i like playing games like this is the size of the force, not to big or to small. Playing time can be quick, which means you can play more games in a day instead of just the odd few like with 40k.As for a way in to 40k it
s one way of doing it, but as im already there ill stick with Kill Team. Like @warzan i would be happier if GW released more scenery packs than start adding more units to kill team, one more thing with kill team you can do a lot of conversion work so you can design your force to look how you want if you dont want to use whats on offer. So im on the fence with KT Commander, i can take or leave him makes no difference to me.I am torn as to weather this is a marvel or a mistake. I thi k the essence of what it is is marvelous and could help to bridge that gap to get more people into 40k proper, but at the same time it feel a little premature. I almost feel they should ha e given it another 6months or more.
Marvel. Kill team most Iconic mission is the assassination of the commander. This expansion allows you to play it out on the table. Adding some narrative play.
It’s overpriced a lot. Great addition, but expensive
I would prefer that they did the commander rules as normal options within the base game, like Ben I feel kill teams power is to craft your own band of the lower ranks, battling through tough scenarios out of view of the higher echelons of command.
It will be interesting to see if they have managed to balance the game, I hope that if one team has a commander it doesn’t force everyone to have one – not convinced GW can balance this, so I expect to have to use a heroic commander unfortunately if my opponent does.
#marvel or mistake, going to go Marvelish!!!!!!!
I initially liked the idea when it was 1st announced but @warzan and @brennon did get me thunking.
He made a lot of good points to which Sam made some very counter arguments from the storyline point of view, felt he was a very good Devils Advocate on this one as up until the Harlequins were mentioned he wasn’t sure.
My two penneth , I think this expansion will be used in ways that @warzan fears but also agree with @dignity that it will interesting to see a team with the commander against an expanded team without, hopefully it wont be the way you have described in Star Wars Legion.
I thought see this expansion as giving you the tools to expand any Killteam leader above the level he could attain in base game allowing him to develop into the legendary hero. In the Outlaw Josey Wales the opening sequences show how he develop within his kill team (Bloody Bill Andersons Raiders) and he becomes above for the movie. For many who have been playing multiple games since its release may have characters who have been played to this level and now want to carry them on, rather than develop new leaders and teams.
From what you said the new expansion allows for 100pts plus teams which was always going to be a problem as teams got more experienced.
Marvel for me. The idea of commanders lends itself to the same cinematic moments that hero characters create in base 40k. Obviously seeing it work in the flesh may be quite different but, like most skirmish games with characters, the storytelling potential of a unique unit is high.
I think it’s great!
Marvel – I thought initially that this was a mistake but having thought about it I think it is a good idea. As someone who never really played 40K but I’ve purchased some models as I like them (and as Warren says we are collectors) kill team was my first experience with playing anything in 40K. The addition of commanders brings me that one more step closer. I don’t think the intent of Kill team is to provide a game for existing players but more as a means of getting the non player into the 40K universe. Some fraction of the new players will continue on and build armies for 40K. It is kinda like a slow grow initiative. It doesn’t mean that you have to continue on to full 40K. The other brilliant thing about Kill Team is that it allows me to dip my toes into a number of factions. If I want to try Eldar or Orks I just go and buy a box or two and I have a kill team for another faction. I’ve been playing Necrons in Kill Team and after loosing to several space marine teams it has me wishing to try one of those. So Kill Team is a Marvel and I think Commanders will be as well. (Note to Justine you should only play with commanders if both teams have commanders.)
Hard to call it a marvel, but far from a mistake. It adds to the base game without taking anything away, so long as GW doesn’t try to make Kill Team a hero-centric game going forward.
Marvel. More options without hurting the core game.
Marvel? Thinking of getting some 40K orcs, think I last played around 30 years ago, when squats still existed!
Marvel, at the moment. Will see how far it goes as the points limit keeps increasing.
I’m on the fence with this expansion as well. For me it is a little too early to expand the game since I have only played it a few times so far. Like Sam I really love the ’regular troops as heroes’ styled stories rather than the big named hero dominating the game.
I’m also worried that this will bog down the game with even more cards to keep in mind as you play. Now you have around 15 cards that you can use each round and for the games I have played this feels quite burdensome. This will probably ease up when you have played the game more.
Worries and hesitations aside I have some positive thoughts regarding the expansion as well. Expanding the skill line this could be used to develop a more narrative campaign styled game. I have an idea with even smaller killteams that will incorporate skills for the sergeant in your small squad. Love the RPG element to killteam and will try to take this further.
I have to end it with a hesitant Marvel since I think I will have use for it beyond the straight up gaming with it.
Marvel I think. I’m cautiously optimistic at least.
Marvellous mistake? I’m reserving judgement.
Marvel for the new players getting into 40K as it allows a growth of your army, which alongside the partworks release is building your options. I think this is a clever ploy from GW combining the two to generate more income.
Mistake for the rest of us, whilst I’d like to field a specific commander I’d like to see more variety in what I can field in a Kill Team. The best expansion they could have released is a fully fledged campaign system, I’ve been tempted by the terrain sets they have released but I’d be more tempted if there was a campaign system to go with each.
I’m not really sold on Kill Team. I think the Commanders expansion is a bit of a mistake partly because of the cost of the commanders. US$35 for a single figure and a few cards is not something I’m interested in doing.
I’ve got a few problems with Commanders:
– it seems to have come really quickly after the release of the base game, feels a bit fast for me for such a major change
– I agree with @warzan here that it’s a departure from what I felt Kill Team should be
– The commander packs seem to be priced pretty steeply for what you get – £20 for the Killteam Tau commander when the base mini is available for E12 means you’re paying £8 for the cards and tokens. Compared to the really good value of the starter boxes for each faction & Killzone boxes, it feels like it’s a bit too much (I guess that will vary depending on how much the individual commander minis are)
I think it’s a Mistake for me just now.
@warzan on the topic of the youtube bot overlord, i believe total biscuit R.I.P. covered the extent to which it covers things like war in a video some time ago, as i remember it will even suppresses you for images of war or guns or soldiers Even when there are no tags no title associated with anything to do with war and the audio was replaced with just the sound of a dog barking it still flagged the vid, so a tool ppl have been using is https://cloud.google.com/vision/ to get some insights into how google/youtube bots view their content and what they could tweak to game the bot a bit, its not much but it seems its all the community has at the moment as yt arent relenting on their blanket stance.
Holy Smokes thank you for this mate! Really appreciated!
yw hope it can help you guys out some how, google have kept this set of tools rather squirrelled away from the community and from what i understand its a tool set but also the actual training input for the actual bots they use, so the more data it collects and discovers the actual context behind the image the better it will be in tagging a model soldier as a model/toy and not and actual person who might be in an actual war, there are many problems with it though as ppl have found out that the bot will identify boobs in rather innocuous content and thus flagged as adult, which is why ppl are getting flagged or suppressed without a clue why, so i guess its just a case of waiting till the bot is good enough so everyones content is judged fairly.
Marvel overall. The price point is a bit high for the book and bits in my opinion. I am looking forward to adding a commander, though, to see what effect it has on the experience (and another mini is welcome).
I think killteam was a mistake to begin with, at least by the way it’s done. Just not enough customization options for existing 40k players. #mistake
You can’t talk about war, so WARren how are you going to deal with mentioning your name?
Its a lil quick but seems like its gonna be fun.
Marvel, adds more interesting options to the game.
I have been enjoying kill team games. I look forward to commanders but I also can see it has potential to ruin the game with over powered characters. We will see..
I’m sorta ambient about Commanders. I thought the idea of Kill Team was these small teams grow into heroes. Now this feels like “Have a hero to lead your normal squad dudes.” Maybe I’m wrong but I dunno. But it could add new, awesome tactical choices into the game. I’m pretty on the fence. Saying that, I wouldn’t say no to a box. 😉
So I think I’m with Sam. Marveltake.
I think its a good thing that they created Commanders. Anything that may bring in more players is a good thing in my book. I agree that you can play with them or not and it only impacts the tournament scene. I’m not a tournament player so no issue for me. Thus Marvel
I do have to say though, I would like some more starter kits that would bring in aspects like different Kill Teams. A Black Templar kill team box would be cool (I know you can paint the space marine one the way you want) but one dedicated to different chapters would be nice. And although I know its a pipe dream having them team up with FW to put out a Krieg Kill Team box would be epic!!!!!
I’d say #mistake on the Killteam Commanders. The box as a product is great. And the rules for well-developed characters could be an interesting addition to the game. But I would much rather have that as the next step up for your basic leader, in a similar way how role-playing adventurers can eventually level up and become legends.
Having the ready-made boxes might be nice for people that just want to pick up and play something. But I think it would be a lot more fun to develop your own hero and build a new version of him as he becomes a proper commander.
The prize Centre is great but I see that there still is no Miremarsh winner announced. Is this still pending?
I have to say Marvel on the basis that although Warrens concerns about power-creep are 100% valid, I think the ability to tell that characters story up close and personal outweighs that. I love the Commander Farsight story for the Tau, and the idea of Farsight leading a small band of Tau on a vital mission is a great concept for me.
just watched this weeks weekender about the ork racing game,had me laughing hard and probably waking the naibours. Always lookforward to this show I love it keep up the great work lads.
KT Commanders is probably a marvel from GW’s point of view. I much prefer low level heroes to epic heroes, but it’s probably a great way to cultivate new WH40k players, or at least 40k customers. KT seems much more approachable and less daunting than 40k and if I may add a cool hero miniature to my hypothetical kill team, that’s awesome. I just don’t want a famous hero, I want a nobody 🙂
Imho Commanders are great add-on though it may be out too soon. I know they hurry to have many products available to buy in Q4 but it’s a bit too fast. Average players played only a few battles since the games’ launch. We still didn’t play a single battle in Rogue Trader. I have 4 or 5 warbands to paint… My sergeants still didn’t earn enough glory in battle and they are already shadowed by commanders. Kill Team range has already a lot to offer but for those who try to be up to date with this product line, it may be too much. GW should let players take a breath before the Inquisition comes out (probably with the Sisters and some more love for GK)